JUMPING DARKNESS PARADE: EYAL ON LINE-UP CHANGES
Tuesday, September 1st, 2009 at 4:30pm by Eyal Levi
So I’m sure you’re all aware of this major lineup change for Dimmu Borgir. I’ve been a fan of that band since ’98, and I’ve liked every single one of their records except For All Tid. My favorite lineup of theirs was the Puritanical and Deathcult lineup. For me as a fan, the music those dudes made together is what really sealed the deal for me with that band. I still enjoyed some later stuff, but for me those two records are where it’s at.
I’m sure they’ll find some amazing people and continue to put out great records, but the band that I became a fan of is now altered. And that got me thinking. How many times has this happened, and when does it really matter?
I remember in the olden days THE Megadeth lineup. Dave Mustaine, Dave Ellefson, Marty Friedman, and Nick Menza. Everyone who’s played with them since has been amazing, and Chris Broderick is a BEAST of a guitar player, but for me the prime of Megadeth was Rust in Peace and Countdown to Extinction. Those two albums, at that time in my life, were what did it for me. Once that lineup was disbanded, that feeling I had was forever altered. I just don’t feel the same. Holy Wars still hits me just as hard as ever, but the dudes who gave me that when I was a kid are no longer there.
Now here’s an example of a band who has gone through multiple lineup changes and I still think they’re amazing… Opeth. I think that no matter who they get, as long as Åkerfeldt stays on his game, that Opeth will retain their magic. And I don’t understand why that is, because when I got into them they absolutely blew my mind, and they were a completely different band at the time. I first saw them in the Blackwater Park days. Blew my mind then, blow my mind now. So yeah, different lineup completely but I don’t care. I still love ‘em.
Or how about The Black Dahlia Murder? That’s another band that I’ve always loved, and they’ve had a ton of lineup changes. Somehow they just retain their magic. Is it maybe that some bands have “celebrity” members like Megadeth had Marty Friedman, or Dimmu had Vortex? Members that you associate with that band, and when they’re gone, it kills something for you?
Maybe its that with a band like Black Dahlia I never cared who was in it, just what it sounded like. Bands that retain the same lineup for their entire careers I think are a rarity. Mastodon, Pantera, etc. That’s harder and harder to do in these trying financial times, and so lineup changes will just continue to be an inevitable and everyday part of metal. It’s not something that’s going to change. So I’m trying to figure out why this matters in some cases and why it doesn’t in other cases and I’d like to get your thoughts on the issue.
P.S. – Kevin Talley is still in DAATH.
-EL
Help Daath avoid line-up changes by visiting them on MySpace.
As long as the major personalities of the band are intact and there is no serious drop off in talent in the transition, I couldn’t care less about lineup changes. Unless it’s one of my absolute favorite bands, I usually don’t pay enough attention to the members to notice a change outside of the front man or possibly lead guitarist anyway.
I think it definately comes down to a band to band basis. Take Pantera, god forbid what happened; Darrell (in my eyes) is irreplaceable and it would be an atrocity for Pantera to get back together with a different guitarist. HOWEVER on the flip side of that coin you’ve got AC/DC who put out Back in Black( R.I.P Bon) which is fucking timeless, Alice in Chains -who i believe are about to drop the album of the year- again in my opinion, lost Layne. I think it just flat out depends on the band, the timing, and the situation.
Phil made pantera though. Dimebag was great, and he’s one of my biggest influences as a guitar player, but his post pantera projects prove my point. Damage plan was awful, but Down and Superjoint Ritual are both awesome. Granted, Pantera is better than all three. But, I’d support a pantera tour with Zakk Wylde playing, not that that will ever happen, but I’d support it.
I don’t know about having Zakk play in Dimebag’s place. That’s like Led Zepplin touring with Brian May instead of Jimmy Page.
Brian May would be a massive improvement.
+1
can we please not have a re-hash of the “dimebag sucks” fight again? kthx
Megadeth’s current lineup is pretty solid but you’re right, Mustaine/Ellefson/Friedman/Menza was THE lineup.
Megadeth will be megadeth as long as mustaine’s there. Same with opeth and Akerfeldt.
I sure miss Martin Lopez. No disrespect to Axenrot ’cause he’s a monster.
Yeah Lopez was awesome – an absolutely fabulous drummer and I do think Opeth have lost something with him leaving. However Axenrot is a damn good replacement and I am still a huge fan of their music (and have been since I first heard Mornigrise)
i’ve grown to accept axenrot being in opeth. i think a lot of people just miss martin lopez’s open, swinging feel. axenrot’s solid for sure, but lopez has that right amount of intentional sloppiness and groove to make even death metal swing.
so yeah, still love opeth.
And yes Metallica could do without Lars Ulrich- even in 2009.
I saw a photographer on America’s Next Top Model today that looked exactly like Lars
Well..if he was acting like a pompous toolbag….coulda been him, who knows?
not really. i would imagine the classic albums would sound different (and they may have had less commercial impact or whatever) if lars weren’t around. i say they should’ve kept lars in the studio and gotten another touring drummer altogether. heh.
but reality-wise, i think charlie benante of anthrax would’ve been/would be a good fit in metallica. their styles are pretty similar.
Daath sucks, Opeth sucks (some songs are okay) and now Dimmu sucks without vortex there’s nothing left there, Black dahlia’s cool
Wow.
You scratched your brain way too hard
I think a band’s lineup change matters more when the band’s overall personality is altered. Opeth consistently knocks it out of the park, but look at Motley Crue — one record with John Corabi (which I liked, BTW) and their style had changed dramatically. Look at GnR… the new record does nothing to bring to mind the sleazy glory days of the Strip, because the overall vibe/personality has changed.
On the flipside, check AC/DC. Even with a new singer, their core sound remained unchanged. And I think that’s what ends up mattering to fans in the long run.
My only problem with Brian Johnson are his lyrics…there is no comparison to Bon in that respect.
I fully agree, well said.
Powerage has some of the greatest rock songs ever written, period. I love that album.
Brian Johnson hasn’t written lyrics since “Blow Up Your Video.” That was in 1988.
THANK YOU. That album is criminally overlooked, it’s the first album my dad played for me, still love it today.
I think their sound did change, they had more of a rock leaning with Brian as opposed to a rock n roll sound with Bon, if you know what i mean. ACDC are still great, but they lost something with Bon’s death (RIP).
I respect Johnson for keeping AC/DC alive and doing a damn better job than most could but the fact of the matter is, he’ll never fully replace Bon. It’s not really his lyrics that kill it for me, it’s his delivery. Bon’s is smooth and natural where as Johnson’s sounds forced and like he’s trying too hard.
Hey Eyal,
I think it Depends on the band, in your case i personally didnt care for your first singer to much like Korn but i liked the music, Sean is a Beast so he improved you Immensly, listening wise i like everything now.
People mention Opeth i think with a band like that its very noticable because of the style they play, with Death metal i think its Easier to incorporate new memebers. In Black Metal or Harder to describe stuff it has a way bigger impact, in how the band will be some add better parts and get rid of the weak link other loose people that are the creative mind and then they suck…
its personal opion in the end though i guess
Honestly, the only Dimmu Borgir records I really like are For All Tid and Stormblast. I haven’t been able to stomach much of their newer releases, mostly because of Shagrath’s awful vocals. I will admit that Vortex was criminally underused though.
As far as Opeth, I haven’t enjoyed their releases a whole lot since Still Life and Blackwater Park. I agree that they’re a great band and they put out some solid releases, but I just find myself grabbing the two aforementioned records when I want to listen to Opeth.
Typically, lineup changes don’t bother me a whole lot. I don’t view a band or an album as individuals (if that makes any sense). I listen to the music, and if I like it then I’ll continue listening to it, but I couldn’t really care less about who made it.
I will miss Vortex… <3 he was my favorite.
I must point out that Michael Akerfeldt writes all of Opeths music…so its inevitable that its not going to change!!!!!!!!
Ill follow that up with Not change that much…….because he has his own style of writing!
The style wont change much because he’s what keeps that intact is the main writer (Mikael). But a lot of the vibe and performance on those albums has to do with the lineup who played the parts. That changes. In some cases it changes everything. In the case of Opeth, Mikael is such a musical force, and the dudes he gets are such amazing musicians, that they can keep their style and feel in tact.
I can agree with that!
nailed it right on the head. also, that’s why i can see why some people would perceive akerfeldt as egotistic and controlling but i think it’s for the best because if he didn’t have tight rein on the band, the music might suffer from lack of direction just because the musicians are all really good and have such varied ideas. it’s just like bandleaders in jazz, someone has to be the main guy.
As long as they are making good music, it usually doesn’t matter. 3 Inches of Blood is a band that has gone through so many line up changes that I think Cam Pipes (vocals) is the only original member. Regardless the quality of music improved greatly between Advance & Vanquish and Fire up the Blades so it’s never bothered me. Baroness is another band that lost a guitar player between the Red Album and the Blue album, but they were amazing live when I saw them a couple months ago.
I think once your band obtains a certain level of success, it’s harder to replace members without turning off your fan base, but before that it isn’t as important.
Actually, Pantera DIDN’T keep the same line-up. Being friend’s with the person that managed ‘em until they got Phil is how I know this.
Original Pantera
Donnie Hart, Vinnie Paul, Terry Glaze (Lord Tracy), Darrell Abbott, and Tommy Bradford
After that
Vinnie Paul, Darrell Abbott, Rex Brown, and Terry Glaze
Further down the road
Vinnie Paul, Darrell Abbott, Rex Brown, and Phil Anselmo
he ment for the successful part of their career
I hate to sound like a kiss-ass… but can anyone imagine Daath without Eyal? It would be a hell of a lot harder to pick up another Daath album without him.
Mark E. Smith of The Fall (not a metal band; you probably wouldn’t like them) once said re his band’s very frequent lineup changes, “If it’s me and your grandma on bongos, it’s The Fall.” I get the feeling folks like Dave Mustaine and Peter from Vader feel the same way. I don’t care who’s in the band as long as the resulting music is good. (I like Chinese Democracy.) It’s when bands lose members and the music starts to suck that it’s a problem.
I’m sorry, Chinese Democracy sucks ass. I’m usually against people pushing their opinions as fact, but in this case it’s different. Three things are certain: death, taxes, and Chinese Democracy sucks a gigantic choad.
Vortex dismissed from Dimmu Borgir?? is not that bad after all!!!
Maybe now he can go back to a less commercial profile as in the days of Borknagar, Arcturus and Lamented Souls.
three kick ass bands
Left to right:
Donnie Hart, Vinnie Paul, Terry Glaze, Darrell Abbot, and in front Tommy Bradford
[img]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/xtremesouth/Early%20Pantera/veryfirstpantera2.jpg[/img]
After that
Vinnie Paul, Dimebag Darrell, Rex Brown, Terry Glaze
[img]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/xtremesouth/Early%20Pantera/earlypantera.jpg[/img]
i think its a hit or miss thing
It depends on the band for sure. Opeth, Megadeth, & NIN will always be unfazed by lineup changes because the lead men are the brain child of the band. I think lead singers are usually the only irreplaceable band member to most casual fans though (Drowning Pool, Van Halen, Sepultura) unless it’s a band like Guns ‘N Roses that can’t function without a talent like Slash to keep Axl’s ego in check. I think AC/DC is a bad example just as Pink Floyd or Deep Purple would be because thirty years ago it didn’t matter as much as it does now because there are thousands of other bands you can listen to these days. But bands like Marilyn Manson need their original lineup or they just become a mockery without the chemistry or whatever it was he once had…
excellent, very well put. The music world is a bit different in that aspect, considering the time gap. The artists listed are true to your example.
Look at fucking NAPALM DEATH. They still whip ass.
I was actually looking to see if anyone would mention them
same here. that’s the ultimate Abe LIncoln’s ax band.
Chimaira without andols was not chimaira, since ‘impossibility” I dont think they’ve measured up since anyway. Dimmu without vortex? That guys very talented. Just examples. You have to look at bands like an allstar squad. Master of puppets -perfect. And justice.. pretty damn close. bass was mute though…ha. Live they were the shit! When you get addicted to a band and they almost seem like friends of yours, it’s hard to picture a missing piece of the puzzle and the result of the next product holding up to your individual standards. Download or CD? Concert or you tube? Am I right?
I’ve got to give HUGE props to Kevin Talley on Chimaira’s self titled. He completely blew away Andols on that album. Just give a listen to “Everything You Love” and you’ll realize his talent and originality. Whereas before it was just Rob Arnold telling Andols what to do. Watch their DVD for the evidence.
I’m glad you’re killing it in Daath Kevin, but WTF! Chimaira would be unstoppable if you were still in the band.
talley is fuckin n uts and he would have been sick with slayer but jus like chimaira he jus dont belong. Daath is a perfect fit!
No Max= No Sepultura.
No shit.
Word.
Most of the bands that I like and support have gone through line-up changes. But the important thing is that the music from the past to the present, the factors of those bands, and the vibe you get from those bands, are still there.
So funny you mention Opeth as an example. I’ve been in this huge Opeth phase for the past few weeks. And I still find Watershed just as amazing as Still Life or Blackwater park. Good call.
Honestly, I don’t think there’s any given formula as to why some band’s lineups matter and others don’t. But i’m sure a good portion of it is reliant on the level of media exposure. Magazine articles, guitar/drum ads and the like. The more the media concentrates on particular members, the more people get inspired by those particular musicians.
If you’d like a first person example, after being a frequent reader of this blog, and somebody who listens to you guys, I can easily say that Daath would def. lose some of its connection to me without Eyal. lol
Cheers.
It depends on what instruments you look for and notice, if any. With Opeth, while the drums are still soliid, the Lopez/Axenrot difference is very noticeable. Ask any drummer.
(Almost) all are very good points, but I’ll take a change in lineup that continues writing (new) good music over a static lineup that stagnates and writes shit.
I’ll raise a glass to that sir. well put.
With most metal, a change in producer seems to have way more impact on overall album sound than a lineup change, with the obvious exception of a change in vocalists. The honest truth about most metal recordings these days is that the parts are usually so fucking edited that they barely resemble any single original performance. I’m not a purist who thinks you shouldn’t edit, but in my experience people edit the life out of parts (especially drums and bass). Shit, Meshuggah used a drum sequencer for an entire album and I barely fucking noticed. I’d be interested to hear Eyal’s experience/opinion on over-editing.
Patience my friend. You soon will.
About the change in producer, Metallica (love ‘em or hate ‘em) is a great example of that. They drastically changed between AJFA and the Black Album, mainly because of Bob Rock, who almost literally told them what to do. And you know what? It perpetuated the fall of the Almighty Metallica. And talking about Metallica, a major line-up change for them was the death of Cliff Burton. AJFA had no fucking bass to it, and the overall sound changed, going from the mid-speed thrash of MOP to the more progressive thrash of AJFA. But yet again, it depends from band to band…
Point taken on the Cliff Burton example. I would still argue that, despite having the same producer as MOP, the most noticeable change on AJFA is the production, which is objectively pretty horrible, but something about it inexplicably works. It’s true that it would have been a different record with Cliff, but the producer probably would have still had them taping quarters to the kick drum and all that shit whether Cliff was there or not. Obviously the points I made about editing only apply to newer stuff. I am actually amazed that Lars could lay down a passable drum track in the analog tape days. After hearing him play live and watching him dictate edits to the ProTools engineer in the Death Magnetic footage and even in Some Kind of Monster, I’m impressed that he was ever able to go without surgical drum edits. But I digress….
Listen to his tempo on some of the tracks on AJFA…it’s all over the place.
Don’t get me wrong, he seems completely incapable of a decent performance across the board. But Battery from S&M came up when I was shuffling my iPod the other day, and based on that performance it is pretty amazing that the same guy played on the original recording…and before the days of Beat Detective. If you look at some of those ProTools shots in the Death Magnetic footage, his tracks look like they’ve been edited to shit. But that seems to be the norm. The attitude is like “well, we have it in ProTools, we may as well make it as tight as possible.” It gets to a point where you might as well just go ahead and use Drumkit From Hell or whatever.
There are a ton of bands out there whom i have loved, but do not care for now that they have a line up change. for example, After the Burial. now i know that a vocalist is alot different that just switching a guitar player or bassist. but seriously, their new vocalist does NOTHING for me. the music is still amazing but the vocals just do not hold up for me. another example would be, like levi said, megadeth. personally i am a fan of their first line up, with chris poland and samulelson for the first two records. the line up on …so far, so good, so what, i didnt care for. and then of course the Nick Menza and Marty Friedman line up is probably their best, at least for the first two albums with that line up. but now, i dont like megadeth at all… to me its more like Dave Mustain and friends, ya know? like hes trying to be Zappa or some shit, its almost like he gets a whole new band on every album these days, and to me, i just dont feel it. But i guess you got to do what you got to do to keep your dream alive.
on that note, there are alot of bands that i still love with the line up changes. and i KNOW im going to catch alot of shit for this, but Zao. They do not have one single original member, yet they are still better than ever. other bands are solo ozzy, opeth, and cattle decapitation. all bands who have gone through pretty huge changes, yet always seem to get better and better.
I’m a huge fucking Zao fan and they’ve had a ton of lineup changes and they’ve mostly been able to put out great music despite the lineup changes. Although had they ever actually recorded an album without Dan doing vocals I would probably have stopped caring
You stole my nickname.
I have to agree with Megadeth, though I really liked Gar and Poland as well. My all time favorite band was Death and the only constant was Chuck, yet every album was great. Dying Fetus was a band that I liked a lot back when Jason, Kevin and Sparky were all in the band. The second that they all left, I feel that they lost it. Alabama Thunderpussy was a band that I really liked when Johnny Throckmorton was the lead vocalist. I couldn’t stand the vocalist on Fulton Hill, but I really liked Kyle Thomas on Open Fire.
Vortex and Mustis were the two most talented dudes in Dimmu Borgir. Mustis’s arrangements were amazing and when Vortex starts singing the whole song just feels that much more epic. We’ll see what they come up with without them.
Dillinger Escape Plan is a band that ive liked through all their line-up changes.
Absolutely agree.
As far as Opeth, though, they definitely lost something with this last change. Watershed is mostly a great album, but Porcelain Heart is terrible and it’s definitely overall a step down from Ghost Reveries.
one band stands out to me in remaining great with lineup changes: Iron Maiden.
On the other hand, Judas Priest with Tim Owens… not that great.
Opeth and Megadeth will always be great because of Dave and Mikael.
Sometimes bands get better with a lineup change, for instance Arch Enemy, although I do like the pre-angela stuff
Firewind’s always putting out great music, and they have a different lineup ever album.
I dunno about Maiden, they made some crap without Bruce and Adrian
Agreed. Virtual XI and The X Factor are pretty much not even listenable for me.
Gorgot to mention that Bruce once obtained was irreplaceable. the X Factor isn’t too bad I don’t think… but it doesn’t feel like maiden (I love when Bruce does it live though)
I agree. While X Factor and Virtual XI are not the best efforts by Maiden. Musically they are better than No Prayer for the Dying. The problem is Blaze sucks compared to Bruce.
Live “Sign of the Cross” and “The Clansman” are fantastic with Bruce. Check them out on Rock in Rio if you haven’t already.
the problem is EVERYONE sucks compared to Bruce. No offense to anyone.
I’ll raise your Bruce and Adrian and say the two albums with Bruce but without Adrian were mail-it-in efforts, for the most part.
Sammy I’m inclined to agree. Fear of the Dark and No Prayer for the Dying don’t hold a candle to Virtual XI and The X Factor. In fact, I’m more likely to put in Virtual XI than any of the others. Now if they can just do something with Janick….
Finally, I disagree with Eyal about something. THE definitive Megadeth lineup IMO is without question the Samuelson/Poland lineup. I could never get into Marty Friedman, way too shreddy for me. I regularly hear tons of guitarists that play exactly like Marty Friedman, he plays incredibly well but he doesn’t really have a signature sound the way Chris Poland does. You can’t immediately recognize a Marty Friedman solo the way you can with Chris Poland or Eddie Van Halen or Chuck Schuldiner. Not to say that Rust in Peace doesn’t kick tremendous ass, but Peace Sells is absolutely top 5 of all time, and I mean of ALL music, not just metal.
As for losing band members, I think it completely depends on how much the departing band member(s) adds to the entire vision of the band. I couldn’t imagine Mastodon, for example, successfully replacing any one band member because they are completely a collaborative band. They each contribute about 25% when it comes to songwriting. Their sound comes from the unique combination of those four guys playing together. In the case of Opeth, their lineup changes haven’t affected their music that much because (as far as I know) anyone in Opeth besides Mikael is serving Mikael’s vision and doing exactly what he wants them to. Opeth is not really a collaborative band. Death is another great example. Their sound definitely changed from album to album due to their lineup changes, but they never made a bad album because Chuck was an exceptional songwriter and he only played with the best of the best. He had Gene Hoglan, Steve DiGiorgio, James Murphy, Andy LaRoque, Richard Christy, and fucking half of Cynic playing on his albums! Unfortunately Dave Mustaine, unlike Chuck, was never really able to assemble a lineup that could hold a candle to the Peace Sells lineup or the RIP lineup, and that’s why Megadeth has been really hit or miss since their heyday.
Epic Fail there for the Megadeth Line up Eyal. Megadeth is Gar, Chris, junior and Dave. Dont forget it.
Lineup changes are crucial in my opinions changing about the band like for example Dimmu Borgir I have lost all my respect for them I could give a shit about them now…after kicking out Vortex and Mustis Dimmu Borgir is seriously fucked and that band is going to go down in my mind…They kicked out the most important members of the band…Mustis got kicked out because he got no credit that he deserved on his albums he contributed on Silenoz is such an arrogant prick he took credit for the albums dimmu borgir is a freaking band soo umm duh they need to stop being so damn cocky and give the band as whole credit. Vortex had some of the most beautiful operatic clean vocals ive heard in black metal and metal in general! Mustis was hands down the best metal keyboardist and composer in metal he created truly epic as fuck music! On top of that Dimmu Borgir is soo fucking weak they had to fire him through a text message which is so fucked up! FUCK YOU DIMMU BORGIR! I am deeply upset with this decision their next album is going to suck because Vortex and Mustis are irreplaceable plain and simple you can not replace them so Dimmu Borgir is seriously fucked! I despise them now for what they did and when crucial band members or band members you love get kicked out it definitely impacts the way you feel about the band. So now my like in Dimmu Borgir is forever shattered I have lost all respect for them now to kick out Mustis are you kidding me???? Silenoz needs to stop thinking hes the shit because hes not Mustis is honestly what made that band Silenoz basically just copied what Mustis did and made riffs based of the keyboards……
Like I said in the Dimmu Drama blog: I am disappointed in them for not handling their situation professionally.
Okay, I’m going to level with you here: Duran Duran was fine with Warren Cuccurullo, but it was never the same without Roger Taylor and Andy Taylor. Andy was totally underused to begin with. Simon LeBon still writes some of the most sophisticated lyrics out there. And if John Taylor ever leaves the band again, they should just call it quits.
Wait, were we supposed to be talking about METAL again? Ooohhhhh! Sorry.
Speaking from a layman’s perspective, I agree mostly with \m/Eluveitie\m/. Normally, I pay too little attention to individual band members to notice many line-up changes without having already heard or read somewhere that integer X, Y, or Z has changed with any given act. I happen to like it that way. Perfect example: I loveloveloveloveREVERE motherfucking TOOL, but I’m not necessarily guaranteed to recognize Maynard if he passed me on the street (much less the others, who have much lower profiles), and I intentionally avoid most press about them that’s not telling me where they’re playing live next or when I can pick up their next release. This is mostly intentional on my part, and it’s my standard practice for pretty much any given act I’m interested in, with few exceptions.
More importantly, I will confess to not having a practiced ear and to not being able to truly discriminate most playing styles. I notice broad shifts in musical direction, content, and production from album to album, but as a layman the differences in style signatures and the tonal qualities favored by individual musicians largely sail straight over my head. Plainly, there are stand-outs and exceptions, which brings us back to Eyal’s point that it is most useful to examine the issue on a case-by-case basis. Entertain the following:
~ You take Flea or Anthony from the Red Hot Chili Peppers and I guaran-damn-TEE myself and half the rest of the planet will notice the difference on the next RCHP’s album and there will be anarchy in the streets worldwide; that is, hypothesizing there could be another album without them. (P.S. Bring back the funk. Yes, please, and thank you.)
~ Alice in Chains, however, will make it just fine without Layne Staley. In fact, I will venture to guess they will produce their finest work yet with William DuVall, keeping the core spirit and sound of the band intact while utilizing to their fullest advantage perspective, sobriety, and exponential gains in musicianship.
~ Behemoth has improved exponentially with each subsequent line-up change in their 15+-year history, keeping at their core Nergal’s artistic vision and tenacity with Inferno’s virtuosic drumming – all the while continuing to innovate and explore their creative boundaries.
~ Killswitch Engage: This band has had several line-up changes over the years, but for most people the issue (if they choose to make one) boils down to Jesse Leach-era versus Howard Jones-era. I choose both in their turn, but then you know me: I’m all about options.
~ Guns N’ Roses? The band’s architectural integrity, so to speak, was damaged when Izzy bailed (bless him), and then demolished completely with the loss of Duff and Slash. This much, I feel, is incontrovertible: It’s The Axl Rose Clusterfuck Project now and his continued use of the band’s name is the real travesty — NOT the dissolution of the band. I still have *Appetite for Destruction* FOR LIFE and anyone who tries to get me to give it up won’t ever take me alive.
The stand-alone: VAN-FUCKING-HALEN. Y’all covered AC/DC here already, but you disappoint me needlessly by overlooking VAN-FUCKING-HALEN. I love you, David. I love you, Sammy. Poor Gary Cherone. I know you’re feeling me on this one, Dime. VAN-FUCKING-HALEN. Lighters up!
Any takers?
You said it, sister.
For murder’s sake, write your own blog already.
I know you can do it.
I’m all about VAN-FUCKING-HALEN, but only the stuff with Dave. And it’s interesting, because for me it has nothing to do with Sammy sucking. I don’t think he sucks at all. He’s got a killer voice, but his joining Van Halen caused Eddie to stop writing so many killer riffs. I have no idea why. Of course, being Eddie Van, he still wrote plenty of killer riffs, but I can’t help comparing them to all of the Dave material, and they pale in comparison.
2 non metal examples
frank zappa
pigface
2 bands where you EXPECT to have a new lineup on each different cd
not surprised about frank zappa, as many prog bands change line ups constantly. look at king crimson.
[ps. 1st person Ive seen one this sight who actually knows who frank zappa is.]
Just because no one’s invoked the name of Zappa doesn’t mean no one here knows that particular genius. It is a metal site, after all. I have yet to invoke the name of Glenn Miller, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be provoked…Wait, I just did…
I think it all comes down to exactly how integral a given individual is in a band, even if they’re relatively new. In the case of Eyal’s band, I was actually quite glad to hear that they were replacing Sean Farber on vox because the dude really didn’t do anything for the band in my personal opinion. (He was just a hired hand to begin with anyway). However, the loss of Mike Kameron made me wonder what Daath would sound like moving forward. I was actually kind of worried.
Exit Mike Kameron….Enter Sean Z. (and Kevin Talley on an official level), and the ensuing intensity of the album that is known as The Concealers blew my fucking mind! The loss of and replacement of former members was exactly what Daath needed to make the record they needed to make. That’s my personal take on that.
And Eyal, SOOO GOOD to know that Kevin is still very much a part of Daath. There may be many other sick drummers out there, but I just don’t see myself digging Daath as much if he were out. He’s just as integral to the band as anyone else. At least, that’s how I feel about it.
Also, to rebut the comment from the dude that said Damageplan was horrible and Down/Superjoint were amazing!?! LMFAO!! You must have been sucking Phil’s balls for sure, because for all the shit Phil talked about how HE was the one who created the “Pantera” sound, Damageplan showed the whole world exactly how full of shit Phil was and always will be. Down was ok on album 1, after that….garbage. And Superjoint was NEVER good….EVER.
And Megadeth’s ultimate line up was indeed the Friedman/Menza line up. Chris Broderick is fucking phenomenal, but no matter what Mustaine does, Megadeth will never touch Rust In Peace. Sad but true.
I too will beg to differ with you there. I gave Damageplan a good chance and I still listen to it but it’s nothing out of the mold whatsoever. It’s for a lack of a better word, very uninspired, just like the Hellyeah project was. However Down has a sound of their own and all three albums have been great in different aspects. Superjoint is a like it or leave it sound for most people but I happen to like it too.
agreed
Dude you say Gehrig’s got Phil’s balls in his mouth…..?? Kindly remove your tongue from Eyal’s ass while you’re at it.
It depends on the band.
And speaking as fan of DImmu Borgir the lose of Mustis and Vortex is a pretty big shock. Especially as Mustis became the main song writer. Most of Puritanical and In Sorte Diaboli was written b Mustis, which was even said by the band on their main websie a few years ago (60% of the music was written on keys) So losing out on a main song writer might be detrimental to Dimmu.
In the case of Vortex i think his lose will also be felt, sure he played bass and can be replaced, he did however bring more to the “pot” so tspeak with his vocals as well.
Dimmu have turned into money grabbing bastards and the whole deal with Mustis is over money so we all know where Shagrath’s and Silonez’ loyalties lie. Again I’m a huge fan of Dimmu but I have lost alot of respect for those two, Im not holding out for anything special for their next album, unless they pull something extrodinary out the bag.
Member changes effecf different bands in different ways, depening on the role of that member and what they bring to the band.
And speaking of member changes what happened to Mike on Keys for Daath lol
We’re much happier without keys
no doubt i was just wondering
People keep talking about Vortex and I think he brought a lot to the table but the man said himself that Mustis was a huge part of the band’s success. He’s obviously a very talented arranger and credit to Vortex for being principled enough to back him all the way out the door in the royalties dispute.
Dimmu won’t be the same for me now – I believe their sound will suffer but the spirit of the band has been ruined by this too. It was the same for me when Dave Jnr parted ways with Mustaine in that regard.
Too much dirty laundry has been aired and I really hope there’s some kind of backlash against Shagrath and co from the fans.
The casual fans dont’ really notice the line up changes. GNR went on a sell out tour without the main players, people still loved the music. We get lost in our supposed knowledge and forget that not all fans spend countless hours on these boards.
You guys already mentioned AC/DC and Van Halen…
How about Kiss??…. obviously the classic line up was with Ace and Peter…
But I, for one, very much welcomed Bruce Kullick and Eric Carr in the band, and in fact my fave kiss line up is Stanley/Simmons/Kullick/Carr..
And yes…. I mourned greatly Carr`s passing.
I consider myself a big kiss fan and oddly enough I never cared a lot about Ace and Peter…
I suppose it has to be with the fact that I discover Kiss with the album Lick It Up, and that very album got me into metal …..
I agree: Kiss has had many line-ups over the past few decades.
- Paul, Gene, Ace, Peter
- Paul, Gene, Ace, Eric Carr
- Paul, Gene, Vinnie Vincent, Eric C
- Paul, Gene, Mark St. John, Eric C
- Paul, Gene, Bruce Kullick, Eric C
- Paul, Gene, Bruce, Eric Singer
- Paul, Gene, Ace, Peter
- Paul, Gene, Tommy Thayer, Peter
- Paul, Gene, Tommy, Eric S
Kiss is probably the only one band that has had many line-up changes
I’ll give a couple of classic death metal examples with line-up changes not altering the band’s sound, if the outed members are no principal songwriters/contributors.
Incantation have had so many line-up changes through out the years, their style has hardly changed – considering John McEntee is the chief songwriter. Autopsy have had a slew of bassists come and go, Chris Reifert wrote most of the music, so it hardly changed anything in their sound. Take at look at UK death metallers Desecration, Ollie Jones writes all the music – no matter who’s backing him up it always sounds true to form.
Cant believe no one has mentioned Cannibal Corpse!!? They replaced their lead singer at the peak of their popularity and became even more successful… And i personally enjoy both the Barnes and Fisher versions… Thoughts?
Pantera didn’t always have the same lineup. It all happened for the better though. They formed in 1981 and Phil didn’t come until 1987. If Phil never joined, Pantera wouldn’t have made it where they’ve gotten to.
Before I found out that Mike did the vocals on The Hinderers, I was really bummed when I heard that Farber left. I thought that was the end of DAATH.
As far as Opeth goes it’s like Porcupine Tree as long as Mikael Akerfeldt/Steven Wilson are in the band it’s good since they both write 90% of the music. The first time I saw Opeth live was last year with High on Fire. They put on an amazing show despite Martin Lopez and Peter Lindberg not being in the band anymore.
If Mastodon had any lineup changes, it’d be detrimental especially if Brann and Brent left.
Eyal have you heard the new Mastodon cd, Crack The Skye? It’s changed drastically from their last cds but I love it. Also since you’re from Atlanta are you friends with Mastodon?
I’ve heard Crack The Skye. Its different, but I could totally see it coming and I fucking love it. I’ve met those dudes and they’re cool, but I wouldn’t say we’re friends or anything.
the better bands always stay together. and sometimes, if one person leaves [cough, MAX CAVALERA] the band will then SUCK. Other times, if a cartain person stays [cough PHIL ANSOLMO] he drags the band down with him….so, in the end, when were all dead, well all be in commertials dancing with vacum cleaners.
hey eyal, tell Baroness to stop ripping off Mastodon.
Heh. Eyal seems to have very similar musical tastes to mine. Even down to my fav Dimmu albums. I’m also a huge Opeth fan and agree, they’re so different without Martin L and Peter, but they’re still … genius. This is due to Mikael being the primary creative force in the band, IMHO.
I’m also a big TBDM fan, and never understood the haters out there (I’ve met a few out there).
I’m glad to hear Kevin T is still in DAATH. I recently saw DAATH in SF and asked Sean Z why Kevin wasn’t there, and he said he couldn’t come on the tour. Whatever is going on, hope everything is OK!
Let’s be honest: a lineup change only REALLY matters if the departure/addition involves a change of:
1) primary writer/creative controller (like Cliff Burton or Isahn)
2) signature “sound” contributor (like Ozzy leaving Black Sabbath)
3) signature “image” contributor (think if Slayer had lost Kerry instead of Dave. MUCH bigger difference)
4) overall band talent
Nobody REALLY cares that Death’s lineup changed between every fucking album, because as long as Chuck was doing his thing, the “image” “sound” and primary writer stayed the same.