JUMPING DARKNESS PARADE: EYAL ON WORKING WITH PRODUCERS
Tuesday, September 15th, 2009 at 5:00pm by Eyal Levi
First of all, I have to say, if you’re into Muse then check out their new album, The Resistance, which comes out today. It’s fucking brilliant. They always manage to take a different approach from album to album, and this one continues on that path. Anyways, its great stuff and I recommend it highly.
I’ve had music writing on my mind a lot these days. Maybe its because I have a lot on my plate. The record I’m doing with Emil from DAATH and Cynic’s Sean Reinert needs to be delivered by the first of the year. It’s going to be released in the spring of 2010. My side project wants to record an EP of still to be written material this December. And last but not least, DAATH is looking to go into the studio in April to record our next one. We’d like for it to be out by the end of Summer 2010.
That’s a shit load of music to write in a very short period of time if you consider that we’re still touring. Some advice I get from people is “Don’t rush.” That’s good advice. None of this is going to be rushed and it will all get what it needs and wants so that it can grow into the work of art it deserves to become. I think I’ve figured out how to write on the road and this next tour will be the perfect situation for that. We are sharing the bus with a straightedge band. Can’t be partying like usual because my health could relapse. Instead of staring into space and wishing I could party, I’ll occupy my time with creative things. So I’ll be writing music on the road. And a lot of it!
As an artist, there’s always that little voice in my head, which says that the past work isn’t worthy anymore and that I can kill it. My logical voice says that the prior works were works that we put our all into, and they represent who we were at the time through the filter of whatever producer we were working with. I believe both. I believe both to the core.
Anytime you are working with a producer, you are giving up a little bit of your artistic purity in order to gain their sound and insight. In some cases it works, in others it doesn’t. That’s still an issue we’re wrestling with. Just how much say can someone else have on our music? It’s a tough question, and I think I’m starting to understand how to deal with it. There’s some factors involved that go beyond the cut and dry, “play it like this” or f”uck that part it’s not good enough” or “you need to completely re-write this.” There’s ego involved. I’m not going to make a value judgment on this, but I’ll say that sometimes musicians get very close to what they write. And understandably so. If it truly came from a deep place in them, then of course if a producer axes their part it’s like axing a part of them. I’ve felt that sting before. I think all of us who have recorded under a producer have.
But you know what? Sometimes you just have to let things go. Realize that it’s just your ego talking, and if your producer and the rest of the band are saying something sucks ,then trust them. People can get very emotional about their music when dealing with producers and other band members. If their parts aren’t used or they’re not allowed to play certain parts, it can really bruise them. So in our pre-production process, we are very brutal with each other. We tell each other that shit sucks all the time. We work together to try and make things better. And we have conditioned ourselves to be able to edit out parts that aren’t cutting it, despite whatever emotional attachment we might have for the part. Our core goal is simple with what we’re about to do musically. We want to blow our own minds. We want to be blown the fuck away by what we just did. And we hope that if it blows us away, it’ll blow you away.
We haven’t been blown away by our own work yet. That’s not to take away from it, but we still feel like our best work is ahead of us. So now that you know what’s on mine and DAATH’s plate for the next little while, and you also know some issues we’ve had to overcome, I have a question for you guys. In your bands, or friend’s bands, or workplaces, or wherever in whatever situation, have you guys ever noticed ego getting in the way of progress? How so? Give me some stories.
-EL
Daath is touring Europe right now with Chimaira, Unearth, and Throwdown. Get a complete list of tour dates on Daath’s MySpace page.
I just finished my first demo, and there were definitely some ego-bruising moments. Both of my bass solos were cut for the sake of the songs… which I can kind of understand now… but I was LIVID for about 5 minutes. It has helped us look at the songs we write from a better perspective, more effectively and consciously, so I’m fine with it now.
I have ADHD (the kind that is short-attention spans and has trouble organizing, not the loud obnoxious kind. Got a little bit of that too, though.), and my parents make me take meds for the sake of my grades. I see it as a sign of weakness, that I have to resort to a pill to just get daily work done, that I’m too weak to do it by my own willpower, as I like to do things by myself and don’t like outside help. And the time when I secretly stopped taking them for a while, my grades suffered. So, I do still need it, and it’s a serious blow to my pride. I feel weak and powerless due to having to take it.
If it’s all right for me to ask, did you ever have a feeling akin to this while in the hospital (since I assume you took meds there)?
The hospital experience was 100 percent terrible. Talk about feeling pathetic. The only thing that made it survivable was the amount of meds I was on. Afterwards I had round the clock painkillers and it was difficult to get off them but I did. Restarting myself was definitely some hard work.
It is definitely an eye opening experience when you have songs written and laid out, then go to record them and a producer basically chops them to shreds. In the end though, more often than not it’s for the betterment of the music. I know when my friends and me recorded our little music project (not exactly a band per say), we went into the studio with these epicly long songs, and when we left, while the songs were still long, we ended up leaving off 2 songs completely and cutting out what I felt at the time, were major parts of other songs. Listening to those recordings now, I hate them, but thats merely because we’ve all envolved in our writing.
You hate the parts that were cut out or you hate the songs you recorded?
I’ve had situations in bands where we couldn’t get in through to people that a part or riff just wasn’t working or was just sub par and on the flip side in my first band i had a problem taking input from other people. It’s funny now because I look back at all of that stuff and about 99.99999% of just plain sucks.
…now I think it’s better to work with other people and get as many opinions as possible because the best thing for a song may very well be something you would have never thought of.
The way I see it, you gotta listen to your bandmates. If you want to make music without any input from your bandmates then become a solo artist and get some hired guns who will play what you write them. You join a band because the talent and creative input from your peers will make a better product than writing by yourself.
Of course this is easier said then done. Like you mentioned in your blog, musicians can get extremely attached to the music and no one likes being told what to play.
Our rule of thumb is that if the 3 other guys in the band don’t like the part, it’s gotta go. No bitching.
nothing to do with the column but i just got back from the first show of your tour with chimaria and you and all the other bands killed it
fucking great job
Thanks!
worst producer ever: Bob Rock. He fucked Motley Crue (okay… they had already fucked themselves up but come on…) and Metallica (I can’t believe they didn’t respect their promise of never working with him again…)
Agreed on the Muse album. I have always found that they sound like they’re trying a little too hard in their quest for epicness, but you have to respect the ambition. It is an impressively ambitious album.
In my opinion, the right kind of producer for truly talented bands is the co-producer/engineer. Someone who is there for technical direction and input when it is needed, but who isn’t interested in completely controlling the direction of the record. Most bands need a technical audio expert in the studio and a third party to bounce ideas off of, but tyrannical producers who have too much influence over the direction are usually detrimental to the end product.
Really well said, I agree completely.
Have you ever seen Muse live? I think that recordings don’t even begin to capture how epic they really are
About producers… well… some bands need a dictator because they either have shitty communication internally OR they suck
Some bands need just a psuedo band member with an opinion who can work the gear. I like that scenario better
it’s really tough having other people critique and change your art. the guys in my band (myself included) used to get so angry when changes were made to riffs. even if it was “hey man, move the whole riff up one fret.” when we got to the studio to record, the guys we were working with were very hands on and made lots of suggestions, and at first, we resented it… like “who are these assholes? they didn’t write these songs, where do they get off?” but we would try their suggestions to shut them up at first, but after we would play the changes and it sounded better…. well we were more open to suggestion. i honestly think fresh ears are crucial to records. you get so attached to your songs that you overlook the fact that they can always be better.
i really dig the blog, man. it’s cool to read something from a musician who isn’t talking down to his audience, and who is discussing problems and issues that any guy in a band or any music fan can relate to. keep up the good work.
Thanks man. Glad you dig the blog.
About your band’s issues… did you guys hire the studio dudes to produce you guys or just record you?
Its two different jobs that require a different kind of involvement. If you hire someone to produce its their job to chop up your songs if he/she feels that’s what’s needed.
Good producers do two very important things: they complement your artistic vision and serve as a buffer of constructive criticism between the artist and their audience. Great insight on the artist-producer relationship, Eyal, it’s something that metal artists are often hesitant to pursue, but that can benefit their music tremendously (if approached in the right way with the right people).
Metal is a genre where keeping it real is, at least on the surface, a serious priority. For some reason many bands feel that giving an outsider any power over their music equates to selling out or commercializing.
Keeping it real is a priority, but in my opinion all this selling out and commercializing is Bollocks. is it just me, or do a lot of bands Hate the likes of Metallica now just because they are really popular?? I have a couple of Friends who went with me all the way to see Children of Bodom in London once (13 hour bus journey) in 2005. whole crowd were metal heads, by the time we went and saw them again in london in 2008, all these “scene kids” and “emo’s” in the audience. Frankly i couldn’t care less about what kind of people were there, as far as i was concerned they were Bodom fans, end of. and now my mates doin’t like Bodom now because they’re “too mainstream”. I thought music was about listening…not a fuckin popularity contest…:S
edit: is it just me or do alot of people hate the likes of metallica because they’re really popular.
I’m sorry, did you just say you’re putting out a side project-ish thing with Emil and Sean fucking Reinert???!!!?
/headexplodes
It must be difficult to have a vision and then someone come in and change it for the sake of commercialism or their own taste. Producers – good ones – have the ablilty to blend the musicians vision with the companies, at least I hope they do.
I recently just quit a project my former producer enlisted me for because of his “E-G-O”.
I live in the same town as the guitar player who has a home studio..I don’t have a licence anymore (guess why!) not to mention they’re all yappers and talk for like an hour and a half about being able to talk for long periods of time so that means I don’t get home until about 1 in the morning..now, I have to be up between 5:30/:45 if I want to be at work on time so that is also a problem.
So lately i’ve been opting to get together in my town..well it seems mr. bigshot (in my best jew voice) got all buthurt about no one wanting to come to his studio for practice and bascially said practice will be done at his house for the forseeable future becuase he injured his foot during mixed martial arts last week. Now…that sucks and I hope he speeds to recovery but idk…does that mean he’s bed ridden? Becuase I mean..well he has a job that he gets to everyday, I wonder if his students all come to his house so he can teach them how to make non-parallel excuses.
How’s that Jack?
Is there a good reason to practice at his place?
Like free rent for the band?
Good gear?
Live room?
Or is it just his laziness?
Dude man was just all about feeling validated because we used his toys instead of someone elses’. We actually had a greater benefit from writing in town, Drum Kit From Hell is a great tool.
Ohhh wella bird bird bird is tha word, sorry family guy is on…best episode ever. Peace Jack!
Great show last nite bro, i didnt laugh at your “slip up”. I was so hyped when me and my friends got into the club i went runnin to the front and sure as shit bit the guardrail. Ahhh good times.
Shit happens!
Glad you showed up though!
Mike2… you are an idiot.
You, Emil and Reinert?! I think I just ruined my pants… and new Daath in the works too?! Next year already looks good!
Agreeing between all parties that the music comes before ego is a prerequisite for me. If you have to end up axing a favorite part, just save it for something else. When I’ve had to ax some of my parts, I swallowed my pride and gave it a chance. Though it took longer to “get used to” than had I not written the axed part, it was far more times than not the call to make.
Of course if I was really stuck to the part, an effort on all fronts to make it work after all was needed to either salvage it or prep for severing. Cutting a part without really giving it some tweaks or a real chance can be a wrong move.
As long as the band chemistry is right and people are in it to make music and not inflate heads, I’d think few things could backfire.
There’s a fine line when it comes to cutting parts
You have to really ask yourself if you’re just being a bitch or if the part is really worth fighting for
That’s a much better way of putting it!!
I’ve had some interesting obsevations of ego at the music school I go to. This or that style of music sucks, what could I possibly learn from it? Or, I’m playing in three other bands outside of school so my school band has to take a distant second… I’m a good guitar player, and this is an easy song. I don’t need to rehearse it with you guys, I’ll just show up and play…
All of these attitudes really aggrivate me… Especially when people talk shit about jazz and country… Both genres have MONSTER players in them, and offer a lot to learn for whatever your style is. And I’m even one of those people that doesn’t like country…
BTW: the new Muse album does kick some serious ass!
LOL I always had the worst time dealing with my old vocalist when it came to this. I’m really hard on myself and so was our other guitarist and we would both junk riffs we thought were sub-standard all the time. Well one day our vocalist, who could also play guitar, came up with a riff he thought we should try out. It sounded cool on it’s own but nothing would ever come of it because it was so odd. when we decided to axe it he threw the biggest bitch fit and took it to another band, who also ended up rejecting it lol…. whata bitch.
by the way Eyal!!! when are Daath coming up to Scotland!!!??