ON METAL PRODUCTION
Friday, November 6th, 2009 at 2:00pm by Vince Neilstein
My piece on drum-triggering a few weeks back ruffled a few feathers and even prompted a defense from Eyal. But what about metal production as a whole? Cosmo Lee at Invisible Oranges just published his thoughts on the current state of metal production, and as usual he’s (mostly) spot on.
I agree with the general thesis Cosmo is putting forth, namely that different kinds of metal require different kinds of production. I’ve never understood people who frown upon anything that sounds polished — there’s a time and a place for big, loud, slick production, just as there’s a time and a place for raw, dry, dirty, band-in-a-room-jamming production. The right band for the right producer and mixer. The argument that spiffed up mixing makes bands sound fake holds no water; the minute you place a mic in front of an amp/drum/voice and record that sound, the mic and recording equipment fundamentally alter that sound. It then takes the finely-tuned skills of a mixer or producer to get the sound BACK to how it actually sounded in the room before the mic picked it up. Sure, there’s over-production too, and that’s a separate issue — I just think certain people are way too quick to cry foul on anything that sounds good (hey Iann Robinson!) when in fact certain situations/bands just warrant that kind of a sound.
Cosmo also points out that mixing and production are more important to fans of metal than fans of any other genre, and I wholeheartedly agree; we’re really fucking picky. There is one part of Cosmo’s piece though that I take issue with:
I can’t tell these [new mainstream] bands apart anymore. Metal production has become such an assembly line that records have no sonic quirks anymore. The basslessness of …And Justice for All; the bassfulness of Severed Survival; the angry, redlined sound of Roots — such idiosyncrasies don’t happen now. Metal, as rock music taken to extremes, is supposed to be a bastion of rebellion. Instead, it has somehow become OK to sand off the edges and embrace homogeneity. I can’t help but feel that the machines have won.
There are plenty of sonic quirks and differences amongst today’s metal records. As Cosmo notes, the dry production of the recent Skeletonwitch and 3 Inches of Blood albums. There’s the whole Michael Keane / The Faceless dry/computery sound that’s definitely got its own thing going on, like it or not. You’ve got the big djenty sound of Periphery and the like. You’ve got the abortion that was the mixing job of Death Magnetic. I’d argue that with today’s production technology …And Justice for All would be BETTER! The only reason anyone could possibly like the basslesslness of that record has to do with nostalgia, that it’s the way you’re used to hearing it, and of course the back-story of Metallica’s bassist situation at the time. My point here isn’t that there’s any right or wrong way mixing is being done in the current scene, but just that there are, in fact, many different styles of mixing and production happening today.
Tell us what you think about metal production below… what do you like / not like, and what’s your favorite production style? Also be sure to read Cosmo’s full piece.
-VN
I agree that each band needs it’s own way of mixing and producing. A band like the Faceless need a very machine-like production. Whereas a band like Converge just needs that raw sound. To each their own.
One of my favorite albums in terms of production is Atheist – Elements. Everything is perfect, especially for an early 90s record – I generally hate late 80s/ early 90s production.
I think alot of bands have a problem with not enough bass or enough of a punch to the sound. too high sounding. overly compressed. And alot of metal production is simply just to turn everything up to ten and record that way. I love the way Pantera Albums sound. I think that was a huge key to their popularity.
In recent years, the best production sound I’ve heard on an album is Corrosion of Conformity’s ‘In the arms of God’. That was an album that sounded fucking great. It really hit you hard. The sound really jumped out of the speakers and fills the room. I remember reading an Interview with Pepper Keenan where he talked about how most metal production was all the same and always approached the same. and he said that they mixed in the arms of god like the mix Jazz albums. I think it really turned out well.
+1 I’ve always been a a fan of Terry Date’s production. (Pantera, Deftones, Soundgarden’s Badmotorfinger, etc…).
And at the same time he ruined Unearth’s In the Eyes of Fire album
No the singer did that!
The Arms of God has incredible sounding drums. They just fill up the room.
i think production can bring a great band down too, not nessesarily bad production, just the wrong kind. Like the new Gojira (im probably gonna get shit for this) but their new record just doesnt sound raw enough. Im not sure how to explain this. I love the record, but i think the sound they got on “from mars to sirius” was the perfect blend of polish and nastiness for them,……
to sum it up, i guess what im trying to say is i agree with the idea that every type of metal band has a kind of production thats right for them…….
that and its all personal taste really…
I though Gojira’s Way of all Flesh was one of the best, if not the best production on an album the year. But like you said, it’s all personal taste really.
And it was self-produced. Logan Mader did the mix and his work is very top-notch.
Slayer’s new album still sucks though.
was waiting for this.
no, a productive conversation cannot be had here on metalsucks.
gotta be some hate someone.
i can’t fucking type today, i meant somewhere not someone.
I just get the feeling like this was posted as an excuse for WPB.
I think it’s pretty funny how Slayer gets a pass for putting out a really bad sounding record, yet almost everyone on this site (writers and comments) shit on Death Magnetic for it’s equally bad sound every chance they get.
I think people need to let Slayer go, they WERE awesome. They no longer ARE awesome.
And for the record I haven’t liked anything from Metallica since 86, so don’t think I’m trying to stick up for those bums.
i agree with the death magnetic/world painted comparison… worldpainted is slayer’s death magnetic…
80’s ‘vibe’ and ‘production’…. one
band gets applause the other gets shit on for rehashing thier sound….
and i think ross robinson is a production god… then colin richardson
Yup, another Greg Fidelman and Rick Rubin joint effort (See Death Magnetic), they should both be shot for crimes against our ears.
Theres dirty raw productions and then theres productions that are brickwalled to fuck with guitars that sound like farts.
I gotta agree. I love the new Slayer album but the production really takes something away from it. The guitars just sounds like they’ve been castrated. Really puts a damper on a otherwise great album.
Here’s my 2 cents…when u work with a good producer and good equipment, you should expect to get a great sound that suits your band, BUT i will give you my story…
we recorded 3 times with the same producer…his name is Julius Butty and he’s done records for Protest the Hero, Alexisonfire, etc etc…he’s on his 3rd or 4th gold record and i think he’s been nominated for Canadian Producer of the Year twice- the man knows his way around a board!.
Our first demo in 2003 had a loose, murky sound to it, our second time in with him was a full-length in 2006, the sound was very raw sounding, and the third time (a couple months back) we went in, we came out with a very clean, polished sound. When we were mixing the tunes, I asked him how he got such a clean, shiny sound this time out and in a nutshell he said that he felt comfortable giving us a brilliant, clean production this time because the performance was so much stronger from all of us that he didn’t need to mask it with more raw sounds and a murkier mix…we just thought the murky dirty sound we’d been coming out with for 5 yrs was a combination of our sound, and his “vision” of us but it was more a recognition by him of our limitations and strengths as a band, which constantly changed over 6 years.
soo in short a lot of what makes a good and appropriate production has to do with the genre and style for sure, but also the recognition of the strengths and limitations of the band itself…if your drummer is shite, don’t draw a big fucking arrow to his kit.
So what you’re saying there, is that the new Slayer and Metallica albums have shit productions, because they are in fact shit? :D
I’m not saying anything, just telling my own personal experience…I’d say you’re not a fan of Greg Fidelman’s work, by your dislike of the Metallica and Slayer production…I personally find them far too dry sounding, it takes away alot from the dynamic of the sounds.
fuck triggers
If you want definition on the kick and the snare, then triggering to an extent is necessary.
“I can’t tell these [new mainstream] bands apart anymore. Metal production has become such an assembly line that records have no sonic quirks anymore” i agree with the statement so mush. every band is recorded the same way, they use the same techniques,same triggers, etcetc not to mention labels only look for bands that sound the same.
aslo, a polished sound is not always the greatest sound. a couple yrs ago, when i first hear the cd ashes of the wake by LOG, i thought it all sounded amazing, but recently, giving it a listen, im left feeling like a just listened to a fuckin lil jon album because of how clean and over produced it all sounds.
the complete KILLER of modern metal recordings is QUANTINIZATION!!! this tactic ruins recordings by making them sound fake…..FUCK QUANTINIZATION!!!!!!!!!!!
Well tbh too much of any thing is a bad thing, you probably dont realise that a large proportion of recordings made in the last decade will have been quantized to some degree. *Quantizing*
If I’m being abso-fuckin-lutely honest metal fans that know jack shit about production should keep their opinions to themselves, because they usually know fuck all about anything. Most have just heard a few buzzwords (Quantisation, Triggering etc) and been told “this is good, this is bad” purely out of context, then they come and formulate an opinion that makes no sense what so ever.
Quantisation makes bad drum performances better, nobody wants slop on a record, just like nobody in metal wants to listen to inconsistent hits, if you want to see a band warts and all go to a gig, if you want to hear a band at their best, buy the record.
The thing about most metal fans is that they, given the chance, frown upon the production of albums that dont use these methods and then tell audio engineers that they shouldn’t use them because they’ve heard they’re “bad”. If bands started releasing unquantised and untriggered albums tomorrow – most would be lining up to complain about poor quality.
At what point does production start to become fake anyway – when the musician doesn’t nail it in one take? When small timing errors are fixed with quantisation? When drums are eq’d or compressed? (Its still changing the so called ‘natural’ sound like triggering).
The truth is if you pay a man to make your band sound as professional and tight as possible, he’s going to do these things because its his reputation that is on the line, not yours, if you come out with a terrible sounding sloppy record – everyone will blame the producer or mixer, not the band – tarnishing their reputation forever. Think about it.
Exactly no-one is going to leave a slightly out of time snare hit when they can just quantize or trigger it.
I complety agree dude, people hear these buzzwords and pretend to have an informed opinion about somthing.
What would an internet debate be without people who have absolutely no clue about the discussion weighing in like they’re Rosie O’Donnel after an day-long all-you-can-eat buffet?
I don’t know shit about the technical side of production; I just know what it sounds like when it comes out on my end, be it through my headphones or my computer speakers. I wish more people would focus on “Why I don’t like what it sounds like on my _____” instead of trying to argue things based on technical merit, when they have no clue what they’re discussing. Toss in the fact that most are using $15 Skullcandy headphones or some cheap came-with-the-computer 2-channel speakers with the EQ cranked like a cheap whore on meth, and their ponderously weighty observations are worth about as much as seagull shit in the ocean.
I think you just destroyed that nail’s head.
well, i gotta say that there’s a definite difference between a band who’s tight on record and band who’s tight live. if you are a live band and you’re a tight live band, i say go ahead and use all the studio trickery in the world to make your album sound as amazing as you want. quantize the drums, use a fucking glockenspiel, or 36 tracks of guitar. whatever. the issue, i think is when you try to put out an album, that you’ve processed and produced to fuck, you give people this expectation that you are going to wind up not being able to live up to. i can fully accept that records SHOULD sound as good as they possibly can. like, sure, quantize and trigger your drums, but when people hear your drummer can’t even play a 4/4 properly, you’re just going to wind up looking like an asshole.
Totally agree. I met Jeff Malone on the Summer Slaughter Tour a couple years back, and he said that every band on the tour called Beneath The Massacre, Beneath The ProTools, cuz they sucked so bad live.
excuse me, ive recorded in a fucking studio and and have seen the process first hand. dont fucking assume that me or anyone else doesnt know what there talking about. IN MY OPINION, if your drummer sucks so bad he needs hours of quantinizing
[dont care how i spell it you asshole] then he should consider buying a metronome and practicing with it. quantinization combined with excessive drum triggering along with layered and spliced guitars makes bands sound bland, weak ,and thin. Also, to verify more so that i KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, i own an alesis DM5, a drum triggering module, and DO use it for my bass in live performeance. fuck off , you little twat, and dont ASSume, or youll look like an ASS.
Just because you own something doesn’t mean you know what your talking about. I won a sewing machine, sure I’ve sown a few things, but still doesn’t mean I can go up to some grandma and talk to her about sewing.
And because you don’t know nor care how to spell quantizing proves further that you do not know what your talking about.
I do audio engineering, you’ve been in a studio. You’ve seen the process, I do the process, there’s a difference I’m afraid, your original post painted quantisation as a bad thing. It’s not. It’s a tool, and like all tools it can be over used but that doesn’t make it inherently bad. This is the big flaw in your argument.
If your drummers or guitarists suck they should practice more to a metronome, you’re right, but to act like a tool is killing modern records is ridiculous, there are just as many talented musicians today as there ever were – many of whom do not need timing errors fixed at all, but sometimes its just a more efficient use of time to quantise mistakes instead of doing take over take over take when a member just can’t quite nail it in time.
You have to realise that recording budgets are being slashed these days anyway because no one is buying records and labels want to save a buck or two, couple this with the fact that they want two more songs for the japanese market in the same amount of time they used to want 10-12 and it’s definitely much more of a rush.
Also I have to disagree with the statement that quantisation and excessive triggering makes bands sound weak and thin – on the contrary it makes weak and thin bands sound powerful on a record, but it also sucks the life/personality out of them, usually however if the musicians are not talented enough then they won’t have too much of this anyway. In addition, you also never addressed my point of – at what stage is it cheating? The digital process is geared towards making it easier for all parties involved – you could theoretically argue that if a band doesn’t nail the whole song in a room with one take then it it’s cheating.
As for the assuming anything about you, I didn’t need to, you clearly don’t really know what you’re talking about and have now resolved to base level insults and meandering rants to try and prove a point against me, I mean really? C’mon now man, grow up.
I don’t understand why people harp on emperor’s last two albums. Anyone who is listening to that band for the kvlt black metal side is missing the point.
They’re not BAD….but I mean, “Thus Spake The Nightspirit” is not on either of those albums.
I agree that most metal albums sound the same these days. When I listen to new music on Sirius it might as well be the same band. I can see why people use drum triggers (for one thing, getting a good mic’ed drum sound is difficult and expensive) but I hate the samples most people use – that big “cannon” sound. Also, I agree the quantization makes everything sound too mechanical. I grew up on classic metal and hard rock, so I’m predisposed to drums that sound like, well, drums.
Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Good bands are more likely to differentiate themselves than average bands, and it’s not just production. Bands with stupid names and shitty album art are obviously not putting as much thought into their product on all levels.
I think a lot of bands just sound the same now a days! Whether their production style is the same or not!
I think this is a great article! Most everything today has a lot of compression, gating, sound replacing, etc. I think this takes away from the natural sound. But with that being said, in regards to the article, it really does depend on the mixing engineer and producer. For instance, my all time favorite metal producer is Frederik Nordstrom. What he did with At the Gates, Dimmu Borgir, Arch Enemy, Soilwork, Zyklon, etc. is amazing. However, I think he has even succumb to the newer way of doing things with production and mixing (I love Arch Enemy, but there was something sonically about RISE OF THE TYRANT I just can’t dig too much. Good song writing though). Another couple favorites of mine are Devin Townsend (Soilwork’s NATURAL BORN CHAOS still remains one of my all time favorites, also cause Nordstrom helped out), Ross Robinson (SLIPKNOT and IOWA were such RAW fucking albums), Peter Tagtgren, and Erik Rutan. I don’t think it’s all to blame on digital recording. This guy is right, EVERY BAND DESERVES THEIR OWN APPROPRIATE SOUND. And lastly, for the love of GOD, STOP OVER DOING THE DRUMS ON RECORDINGS! They sound like fuckin’ drum machines rather than live drummers. If you want a drum machine, USE A DRUM MACHINE. And drummers (I am one myself), IF YOU CAN’T PLAY IT LIVE, DON’T RECORD IT!
“IF YOU CAN’T PLAY IT LIVE, DON’T RECORD IT!”
Seconded. This drives me crazy, it’s gotten to the point that I can’t go to local shows anymore because no one can play anything they write. I have to be held in an arm bar or something equivalent so that i don’t jump on stage and kick the drummer in the head and play his parts [that i don't or will ever know] for him because he certainly cant do it.
By the way, Travis Smith, FUCK YOU. I can play your parts without breaking a sweat [even Rain and the other faster songs], yet you can’t even do it SLOWER when you try live. PLEASE quit drums forever. At least Lars Ulric can play what he writes, even if it is shit.
Yeah. Rise of the Tyrant does some “weird” in certain settings. It’s tough to put a finger on but it’s weird. Love the production on Doomsday though.
Totally agree with this. Tyrant just sounds weird in my car. The treble is grating, and something is missing in the middle. I don’t know what it is, but I have definitely missed out on the band because of that. Sounds great on my stereo at home, but Doomsday and Wages sound a whole lot better.
The problem with that is it could quite possibly be a shitty stereo, instead of a shitty production. Not saying it is or isn’t either way, but the inherent problem about discussing subjective stuff like music online is that one guy who thinks a specific band sounds like shit only thinks so because his $30 Wal-Mart special stereo system couldn’t reproduce whale farts right, let alone something intricately technical.
Most car stereos are absolute shit, with buttfucked response, horrible staging, and an emphasis on muddy lows and treble either shrill enough to crack glass or so shrouded you’d think you had a towel over the speakers, so I’d be more inclined to lean that way personally if I heard an album in a car and it sounded wrong, until I could play it on a good home stereo or headphone setup and decide if it was a production or a reproduction problem.
100% completely agree with you, about shitty car stereos. That’s why I have a great one. Infinity Kappas and Kappa Perfects along with an Alpine head unit that has some quality DAC’s. :oD
What really sucks are cars in general as an environment for audio. I don’t go and sit in front of my front right speaker at home, you know? Much less road noise, engine noise, traffic, wind at 75 MPH, etc…
Yeah, there’s only so much you can do to make a car a good audio environment, and even then, you’re still really constrained. I did system design and install from everything from SPL burpers to extremely expensive SQ systems, and even with all the money dropped into a car’s stereo – deck, EQ, components, amps, subs, imaging, time delay, interior resonance, sound dampening, low-frequency wave cancellation, all that other shit that took lots and lots of money….I can plug a set of AKG K501s into my tube amp and get a much cleaner, more dynamic, much less colored sound listening to music, and not have to deal with any car-related noises doing it.
Car stereo shit is ungodly fun, especially burping a competition SPL setup when no one’s expecting it, but once you get into home audio, it takes a lot of the fun out of it, at least if you’re after SQ/SQL. Although, you can make fun of the $5,000 power cable HT guys, which almost makes up for it.
“If you want a drum machine, USE A DRUM MACHINE.”
qft.
i agree. also, not only drums, but vocals. For example, listening to a fear factory song, he sings perfectly in tune on the record [ vocal equilizers] but live he fuckin sucks. if ya cant do it live, dont do it. like the deathcore bands that have their double bass going at 3000 bpm but cant mimck that speed or endurance live…
A great production can enhance a record, but good songs and good performances stand on their own. Every Misfits recording sounds like it was done with a $10 Casio tape recorder, through a through a linoleum floor. but those records stand the test of time because they’re great songs.
Or, to put it another way, have you ever heard someone say “Yeah, the songs suck, but the drum sound is AWESOME?”
The thing that pisses me off the most – and I didn’t see it mentioned in the article – was how generally LOUD albums are produced in the past couple years. It’s gotten to the point where I run a -6db filter on my music player just to tone the music down to the point where it’s enjoyable. For some reason, producers or mixers or whatever seem to think that the louder an album is, the better it is. Maybe with your 1992 cd player and your duct-taped 6×9s sitting free-air on the back seat of your car, louder is better, but for people who enjoy music and enjoy it reproduced correctly, loud = shit.
As far as actual production sound goes, some bands, like Scar Symmetry (barring the fake, computerized sound of their latest album) and most power metal bands, need a clean production, although maybe not so squeaky-clean as some have. Conversely, thrash and speed metal really inherently need to be gritty (although not lo-fi….seemingly, lots of people can’t distinguish between lo-fi, which just fucking sucks ass no matter how you look at it, and gritty production), while death metal can benefit from either the really dirty end, with chug-chug death metal, or the really clean end, with melodic death. Course, there are bands in every sub-genre that sort of stick out and make a completely different production style work for them, and some bands, like The Gathering, benefit from as flat and unobtrusive a production as possible.
Really, when it comes down to it, the production has to be driven by the individual band and the individual album. Production from Kill ‘Em All just wouldn’t have worked with the Black Album, because the end result desired was completely different, even though it was the same band. The production for Nightwish’s Wishmaster production wouldn’t have worked at all for something like Within Temptation’s Mother Eartth album, even though both bands are power metal with extremely strong female vocalists. There’s no such thing as an overarching right or wrong production style.
With regard to loudness, you should check out ReplayGain. I apply this to all of my mp3s, using Foobar, and it takes care of the loudness issue. Basically, it scans all of the files, measures their peak volumes, and normalizes it. Good stuff.
I’ve just got gain normalisation and a flat -6db set in the preferences for foobar right now….I’ll have to check that add-on out and see what it’s like.
It’s worth it, as far as I’m concerned. It adds info to the mp3 tags, so it stays with them in any player that recognizes it, and you can set the volume level. There are also a few CD burning programs out there that recognize RG info (like Burrrn and CDBurnerXP), which is useful, and Rockbox recognizes it as well, which is nice since I use Rockbox on my Sandisk Sansa.
Demonic – Loudness is definitely another issue in recordings now, but I wanted to focus on production before the mastering stage. There is already plenty of commentary out there on loudness and over-compression.
grover – Programs like ReplayGain compensate for over-loudness by simply increasing and decreasing the overall volume of tracks. An over-loud track is still going to be brickwalled and dynamics-less afterwards. You’ll just hear it at a lower volume. Loudness isn’t just “too loud,” it’s also “sounds bad,” and gain normalization can’t address that.
Yeah, I know it just compensates by lowering the volume… I suppose I probably could have been a bit more clear on my understanding thereof. It’s nice for listening to mp3s so you don’t have to keep adjusting your volume level, of course, and it’s nice for making mix CDs.
Ya, I can understand that. It’s a personal gripe of mine, people who think hitting the “bass boost” and “loud” buttons on their stereo means the music is going to sound better, or who think an EQ that looks like a schizophrenic squirrel adjusted it is normal.
It’s all a matter of taste to me. For most bands, I like a more clean and tight sound. I have a hard time enjoying the super raw sound of many more kvlt black metal bands. I don’t like a sound that is so full and cluttered that you can’t make out separate instruments, I don’t like a sound that is so empty you can’t tell there are multiple instruments and layers. I personally like triggers if you’re triggering a good sound. Sloppy drumming is a killer.
some of my favorite albums in terms of production/mixing: The Black Dahlia Murder’s Nocturnal, Candlemass’ Nightfall, August Burns Red’s Messengers, Job For A Cowboy’s Doom, High On Fire’s Death is this Communion, Arsis’ A Celebration of Guilt
Like a lot of people, I really think the appropriate sound depends on the band. It’s probably true that a lot of start up bands or bands looking to get to the next level seek out a specific producer and say “We want our album to sound like this [other band's album].” And, sure, that’s lame but if the songwriting is there I think you can get over bad production.
I tend to really like Devin Townsend’s production. He really fills the mix and gives everything a big, clear sound while still letting it sound heavy and raw. I also think he seems to bring out the best in bands he produces.
I’m a big fan of the production on The Haunted’s “Versus.” The songs could’ve been better but, jesus, that record sounded great. I also loved Byzantine’s “…And They Shall Take Up Serpents.” I’m a bass guy and that record grabbed me right off the bat because you could actually hear the bass, prominently. Most metal bands nowadays I couldn’t tell you what the bass player was playing if you paid me.
Albums this year whose production I didn’t like were The Black Dahlia Murder’s “Deflorate,” which I thought was too clean and thin. I think their sound really lends itself to that filthy sound on “Nocturnal” or the rawness of “Miasma.” Something about Immortal’s “All Shall Fall” rubs me wrong too, which is surprising given that it was produced by Tagtgren who usually does a great job. It seemed like they didn’t know if they wanted to go back to the old lo-fi black metal sound or stay on the clean, big sound of their later work. I liked both albums overall, though.
The Haunted’s Versus was produced by Tue Madsen (the BEST producer currently in all of the metal scene). In fact, the album was recorded live (minus solos/vocals) and it sounded superb.
It’s hard to describe the kind of production I really like on an album, but I like for it to have some weight to it, especially on the drums. For so many bands these days that abuse the hell out of the kick bass, they make it sound so high and clicky that it bugs the hell out of me.
The best example of good kick bass on a recent album is on the new Gorod album… to my ears, it’s perfect.
so im not the only one high pitched clicky bass drums piss off?
Yeah, it drives me crazy. Sometimes the music is good enough to overcome it. For example, I loved The Sword’s “Gods Of The Earth”, even though I thought that the whole album could’ve used some boosting on the low end.
Decapitated’s Nihility drove me insane. I still listen to it because the music is just so good, but got that kick sound was terrible. Almost as bad as Lars’ Snare sound.
If you want a huge bass drum sound listen to Hacride’s latest album Lazarus. That thing just sounds beautiful, and ou can tell that its natural too not even triggered, same with the rest of the kit.
I love the way Matt Bayles produced records sound. To me it is the perfect blend. Organic without being messy, crisp without being sterile. Of course his style really lends itself to the type of music I personally prefer. Jack Endino’s sound on the new Skeletonwitch fucking rips too.
There are long traditions of music production both in the US and England. It is a part of a process, one that starts with a musician’s idea and ends at the listener’s ear. Our recording processes can do a perfect job, but it doesn’t do it on it’s own. Most poeple can’t make it happen and a lot of listeners wouldn’t hear it anyway. It takes someone who has mastered the entire process from getting a gutar sound to tuning drums, to mike placement. Poeple who don’t hear just use the new gear as its given and you get what we have today: crap in/big shiny crap out.
With all this talk of what album productions we like and which ones we don’t, I’d like to know what people are listening to them on. What sounds good on an iPod doesn’t necessarily good on a proper stereo. And vice versa.
I hear people complain all the time about how quiet the early Anthrax and Malmsteen albums are. I’ve got a volume knob for that, and they sound fantastic.
Likewise, Bodom’s CD’s after Reaper pretty much only get played in my car, cause their obnoxious low end actually has a place to live.
And Dream Theater and Opeth just sound good anywhere.
This is something I forgot to mention in my original post, but commented on in an above post. If someone is bitching about an album sounding bad, but they’re using $5 earplugs and a cheap mp3 player (it’s amazing how different the same album can sound, using the same headphones, with an iPod and a Sansa or Zune), it sort of invalidates their whole bitch.
I use my ipod to test my mixes, I regard it as the lowest common denominator in terms of audio quality, if your mix sounds good on an ipod then it generally sounds great on a higher quality system, because ipods have this amazing ability to make everything sound like total shit.
You have a point though, the people that invariably complain about audio quality are usually listening on the worst speakers/earphones ever – on some horrible 128kb/s mp3 and expecting it to sound amazing, then telling people that things like triggering are bad. Can you imagine how terrible this sort of setup would sound with a record that is natural sounding – you’re degrading all the quality anyway with mp3 compression and then expecting a natural mix to cut through on terrible speakers, it just doesn’t work.
Dream Theater always sounds fucking awesome! John and Mike have got it down! Their early albums, the bass was too low in the mix but since they took over, you can hear it all!
Another point to think about is the limited recording budgets bands have now a day. There simply isn’t time to experiment with mic placement. As for quantization, because of the limited studio time allowed for drummers to track, it’s necessary to simply quantize small mistakes rather than wait for the perfect take.
I always read metal nerds commenting on black metal bands cleaning up their production too much to be kvlt, but let me tell you…i drive a work truck all day with a basic radio in it, AND i looove some black metal. well ive gotta play music thru a FM transmitter and my speakers in the truck are all shit! its almost impossible to listen to shitty production because it just sounds like a wall of fuzz…and thats to the ear of a seasoned black metal listener! i appreciate newer acts with audible production because i can actually listen and enjoy them during the workday! i’d say that each individual album, and not necessarily the band, should have a fitting sound. Look at WINDIR: the first 2 albums are amazing with fuzzy production, but the latter 2 are amazing with clean production. I’d say the polished sound allowed the band to create better individual songs on the 1184 and Likferd albums
Immortal’s “Sons of Northern Darkness” is a great example of good, clean, punchy production that somehow works for black metal. I think it has to do with the type of black metal. If it’s the Darkthrone style of “we lurk in the forest, where it’s grim and cold”, then the production should be crappy to give that super-trebly, freezing wind effect. But if it’s the Immortal “we wear armor and carry weapons and we’re going to fucking kill you all” black metal, then the good production really works.
I don’t know if it’s because i’m a baritone, but I’ve come to release I really REALLY love it when the low tones of metal come through. There’s something to be said for a metal record that really chugs, without just being low pitched noise (like when someone with a modded civic or whatever drives by and all you hear are mini earthquakes rather than actual MUSIC).
The thing I have noticed is that getting the right bass tone and level can disguise guitars that lack definition. What I mean by that is when a guitar has too much mid range, it lacks punch. Bass can make up for that, but only when done just right, I have noticed on albums by as I lay dying, killswitch engage and even lamb of god, that the guitar tone by itself is thin and buzzy, it’s the bass in the mix that makes it all sound crushing. I am very picky about guitar and bass tone now that I’ve developed an ear for them. I myself like a scoop EQ for guitar (bass and treble boosted for chunky palm mutes but also clear leads and octave chords, and a reduction on mid). I understand that generally it seems that mid is boosted on guitars. I understand why because I know that it makes it easier for the singer to hear where he/she needs to sing, but I hate how it sounds.
A very good example of what I’m talking about is Praises to the war machine from Warrel Dane and co. The guitars in my opinion are way too buzzy with mid range, they sound ditry, like a punk guitarist chose them. but with the bass it’s not as obvious and still sounds reasonable heavy (though not as good as nevermore).
I think in general since I like a cleaner, clearer sound, I prefer metal (or heavy rock) produced over ground (I love the tone and intensity of the guitars/bass/kick on Chevelle albums for instance), but don’t mind a bit of a dirtier tone in some cases (Isis’ Oceanic for one is rougher around the edges but not totally fuzzed out).
Oh yeah… System of a down is a great example. The self titled is borderline too raw, it’s really intense and while I wish it was a bit cleaner I can listen to it. Toxicity and Steal this album were much more refined and punchier. I liked that. Then Mezmerize and Hypnotize were fuzzed right the fuck out and sound awful. I have a hard time listening to anything from those two albums.
I personally think that production plays a great deal in records. I prefer a balanced mix, where I can heard all the instruments and vocalist clearly. That said I don’t mind productions that do stuff differently.
For example, even though James Lee’s vocals are buried in mix of the Origin records, it’s still Origin, and I find that that’s their sound. And you know what it’s awesome!
Here are some examples of my favorite producers.
Erik Rutan-Kil, Evisceration Plague, Hate Eternal
Andy Sneap
Jason Suecof-Job For A Cowboy, The Black Dahlia Murder-last two Nocturnal and Deflorate, Devildriver, God Forbig
Devin Townsend
Fredrik Norstrom- The Legend
Ross Robinson-I know a good majority of people on this site don’t like Nu Metal, I admit, I am a fan of a couple bands, but there is not denying the good production for some of these bands. His Best ones are Korn-st, Slipknot-Iowa, st, Sepultura-Roots ect.
Tue Madsen-he did Fiction by Dark Tranquillity, and the last 2 Aborted albums not counting Strynine 213.
On the subject of instruments, I don’t mind having a heavy bass mix, besides the fact that I’m a bass player, I find it adds natural heaviness to the music. I love Severed Savior and Skinless, both bands have great mixes, yet I kinda mind when the bass is a little to predominant in the mix e.g. Obscura, a fretless bass cuts through production like a knife, listen to anything by Steve DiGiogrio, but it was too high IMO for their last record. That said I don’t mind if the bass can’t be heard that much, since it usually follows the guitar line, this is what most modern bands do, yet I really dislike when you can’t hear the bass at all, especially for any type of metal other than Black,
Drums, again need to be balanced in the mix, not too high Blooddrunk, but not too low either
On the subject of raw albums, their either hit or miss, e.g. I love old black metal but that doesn’t mean that I don’t like modern production on some. The new Ceremonial Castings’s album has a fantastic mix; the instruments are recorded in old, raw, black metal way, but the synths are recorded in a modern format so when the tracks are playing they have both. WIN, there are some raw albums that fit the mood of the music. Mayhem-Ordo Ad Chao, and even though I wish the bass was higher, I liked Cryptopsy’s Once Was Not-that album had good raw production.
In bad production album, I don’t like the tones of anything, and it all sounds very wrong. Rick Rubin has destroyed the production on the past few metal albums. Clip Magnetic, has one of the worse production jobs I’ve ever heard in addition to it being a hard rock album, I know I will get nailed for this, but I really like Metallica’s St. Anger, it had good production and songs, if it had solos it would’ve been amazing, but as it stands I think overall it’s a strong record. In addition I feel that bad productions mask how bad a band really sounds. e.g., I enjoy Dragonforce’s albums, but that’s a bad I know full well I’ll never ever go to see live. They can’t play their songs and their mix sucks. Addressing this point I agree with Erik Rutan about having the sound of records being natural to the band and genre. It shouldn’t sound artificial, or overdone, that only masks bad instrumentation.
Overall, I feel that a production on an album is a bit like porno. Good and bad ones are more easily recognized than defined. So in conclusion , I don’t mind productions on a lot of my albums except when it detracts from the listening experience. I admit, there are plenty more good producers I didn’t name, frankly because there are so many of them, I just hope that my favorite bands and producers keep doing what they’re doing.
Horns Up,
Devastator
you forgot colin richardson… burn my eyes and demanufacture… two of the best sounding albums…
and yes Ross Robinson is the production god… not for the slickness beacuse it quite raw but for the performance and intensity your hear on the albums… its a true sounding record….
Suecof has done a lot of killer metal albums as of late. Andy Sneap is amazing as well as Colin Richardson. Adam D. is actually a great producer also…I love how he gets a good mix of low end…
I don’t mind good quality metal production or drum triggering cause most bands can pull the drums off live…I just hate fake ass guitars and auto-tuned vocals like all these shitty deathcore/metalcore bands like Born of Osiris and Miss May I
Good production is more enjoyable to listen to, so basically I hate robot metal
my absolute favorite record as far as the sound of it goes is Arch Enemy’s Doomsday Machine, muddy vocals aside. the guitars sound warm, massive, and grand, yet still brutal when it needed to be. the leads cut through like a knife through butter, not like a chainsaw through wood. and the drums complemented the whole “big” sound. i do agree with the general consensus that the vocals should have been more raw, but even then i don’t mind them that much.
If you are a melodic metal band, and want some slick, thick and heavy production Jacob Hansen is the best in the business. He has produced (I think) all the Mercenary albums, and each one sounds flawless particularly 11 Dreams.
I do find it funny how many people talk about music production and mixing and recording like it was one thing.
I know that most of haven’t even been to a big studio to see how its done.
Just cause you have a Pro Tools/Logic/Etc unit at home. Doesn’t make you a Producer/Engineer or whatever you want to name yourself.
So what I find it’s that 99% of all you that talk this talk about recording really don’t have clue what’s going on with recording/mixing/mastering.
I have seen it time and time again. People talk a good talk walk into the big room and have no idea how or what to do with a session.
High On Fire’s Surrounded By Thieves is the best produced metal album of the last 9 years.