«
»
Editorials

THE AUSTERITY PROGRAM’S JUSTIN FOLEY ON THE FORMAT WARS (PART DEUX), TAP’S NEW EP, AND PAT ROBERTSON

Wednesday, January 20th, 2010 at 5:00pm by

I wanted to jot down a few quick thoughts based on the responses that people took the time to post on the last piece that I wrote.

Responses: I tallied up people’s responses and have charted them out below. While no one’s expecting something statistically robust (and this is [i]not[/i] statistically robust), I should note that this tally is what I could gather from what people who decided to respond said that they did (and that the responses are current as of Wednesday at about 5:30 my time). You will see that the percentages add up to more than 100% – this is because a bunch of folks reported that they get their music in more than one way. The “Purchase Other” category includes folks who said they purchase a digital download and at least one person said they buy cassettes.

Given all these technical caveats, I wouldn’t recommend any record executives base their next release schedule on this – a bunch of people didn’t respond and their behavior may be very different from those that did. And if someone reported that they Soulseek a hundred records, buy ten CDs and buy 1 vinyl record, they’re counted equally for each category. Still, I’m surprised to see that as many of those who did respond still say they value getting a CD; I assumed that it was dying a lot quicker than this suggests.

Anyway, big thanks to folks for sharing their perspectives on this.

Vinyl Sucks: There are a few different pieces to this and I’m going to say that I disagree pretty strongly overall. Vinyl does three things very well. First, it gives the artist a chance to put together the visual artwork on a larger scale and CD or digital download; we’re currently paying a lot of attention to that for our next release. Included with this is the ability to put cool free shit into the record sleeve. I once got a Chick Tract, which was great.

Second, the sound quality of vinyl is unsurpassed. This is not to say that every person who has a record player and some digital reproduction device can show this for every record they’ve got. There are shitty pressings of records, records that have not been kept well, lousy record players, etc. But I sat down last night to listen to the test pressings of the EP we’re putting out. I will tell you that the vinyl was a closer representation of what I have heard on the ½” analog master tape than the 16-bit CD .aiff version that the same mastering engineer sent to me two weeks ago. It’s not warmer, it’s not punchier – it’s a more accurate reproduction (taking into account the gentle compression the mastering engineer put on both the vinyl and CD versions).

At the same time, I’ll concede that I don’t hear that difference as clearly as some say they do and I have a bunch of CDs that sound very, very good. Our last record was not available on vinyl and I didn’t feel like we were ripping people off by giving them the music on CD.

Third, pretend that I’ve got a time machine, a Magnum .44 and a strong hatred for you. I approach you and say “I’ve got four versions of the song ‘Push It’ by Salt ‘n Pepa: the 7” single, the CD single, a USB memory stick with a .wav and a coupon to download it from iTunes. I’m going to step into my time machine and go 50 years into the future and find you. Pick a format – you need to play back that version in 10 minutes of my finding you or I will shoot you in your left kneecap. Then I will move up and shoot you in your right hip. Then I will spin you to the side and shoot the tip – just the tip – of your chin off …”

Like I said – pretend that I really hate you. Anyway, which version would you bet will definitely be in good enough shape to reliably play back in a half century?

I’ll be brief (for once) and say I believe it would be the simple and robust analog technology of the record. The claims that people made around vinyl being eaten by record needles need more evidence and run entirely counter to my 25+ year history of owning and listening to records. If you’ve really got a bee in your bonnet about this subject, I’d encourage you to check out this thread on the TapeOp message board where I go back and forth with a fella for a while. Those who really want to get schooled can read Steve Albini’s excellent points on the Electrical Audio forum. In both cases, we’re talking about the advantages of analog sound recording but the basic lesson is the same here.

Our EP: We are releasing it as a CD, an incredibly beautiful sounding 45 RPM 12” record, a digital download and a Data DVD. The Data DVD will have 24-bit versions of each song, as well as .wav files of each of the tracks for each song so that you can remix it to your heart’s content. (“Let’s bring the drums up and bring Justin’s singing way, way down…”) The winner did correctly “guess” the formats after reading our label’s Tweets to the world about the release formats. Sheesh.

Pat Robertson: This guy simply has to be the biggest asshole in all of recorded history, right? There are people trapped under rubble struggling to live at the same time he’s blaming them for it. Astonishing.

-JF

Participate in the format wars by visiting The Austerity Program on MySpace.

Tags: , , ,
  • Hetallica

    What the hell is a “CD?”

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brendan-Snow/514886363 Brendan Snow

    just for the record, Pat Robertson IS the biggest asshole in all of recorded history. he basically said haiti had it coming.

  • Patrick

    love this guy and his band

  • Ziltoid
    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Winnett/504952291 Daniel Winnett

      there was a pat robertson voodoo doll on ebay that, when i checked it, was at 1125$, with all the proceeds going to the red cross to help with the relief effort

      • Nick B

        That’s such an amazing idea…

  • Chip Northcutt

    Vinyl is great, sounds great with good turntable, I prefer it to cd. Some cd players sound terrible, really bad. Ditto on the hit or miss audio quality on the Mastering of original records, now they are done pretty well consistantly. Lots of the original transfers to cd from their original analog sources were done poorly.
    I like to record the vinyl to my Tascam cd writer and import that to I-tunes. An ipod and some Shure E2′s make a simple and really good listening system for 200 dollars. There will always be a demand for good sounding, convenient computer files as there will be for good vinyl as well.

  • http://www.myspace.com/robbiedrechsel Robbie

    I’m sorry, but Vinyl does not sound better. It sounds different. It’s becoming a very popular myth, that does might have some weight to it in many cases, but in the end isn’t true. Saying the sound quality is unsurpassed is a huge generalization that I can’t agree with.

    And for the record, I’ve heard $100, $1,000, and $10,000 dollar turntables on $1,000, $10,000, and $100,000 audio systems.. They have limitations.

    Most people are probably going to hear it on some $15 dollar budget earbuds anyways…

    • wormdrive

      you are wrong my friend and i will bet every person with a record Player will agree with me. Something is lost in digital recording. Listen to a good heavy guitar song on cd then on Vinyl and you can not deny it. unless you are tone deaf.

      • http://raiseyerfists.wordpress.com raiseyerfists

        I’m sure there’s some “scientific explanation” or something that lossless digital formats “technically” have the “best” sound quality. But it’s music — you don’t need a PhD to have an opinion on what sounds better.

      • http://www.myspace.com/robbiedrechsel Robbie

        Being tone deaf would imply that I am unable to hear specific frequencies of sound when they are played back.

        Vinyl has significant difficulties reproducing higher frequencies of sound. Those who are tonedeaf in the highest octave of music would be the ones who would be unable to hear the difference between vinyl and digital reproduction.

        And something is lost in digital recording? Virtually everything (99%) of what has been recorded since the last few decades has been digital in some form. So even if you’re listening to it on vinyl, the damage was done back in the studio.

        If guitar does sound better, it’s because of the EQ tilt applied when the vinyl was pressed. Same reason why some DJ’s prefer it, more warmth and more bass. Not necessarily more accurate.

        • http://www.myspace.com/robbiedrechsel Robbie

          @ Raiseyourfist. You are 100% correct. Opinions are opinions. What is the issue is people saying vinyl sounds better on a hundred dollar turntable, when the music was recorded digitally in the first place.

          I have hundreds of albums on both formats. And I LOVE both format.s What I really enjoy is SACD in 5.1. But those are really hard to find, and I don’t have the best room for it.

          • Justin Foley

            What’s the evidence that vinyl can’t reproduce HF well? In addition, the issue of the original recording medium isn’t important. I can record something on a 24bit RADAR system, mix down to 1/2″ analog 30ips tape and cut directly to laquer. That’s one D/A transfer and the digital resolution never dropped below 24 bits. The same thing going through at least one more D/A conversion and being presented as a 16 bit aiff file on a compact disc can obviously drop in the fidelity of the resulting signal to the original master recording, even though it’s all digital.

            My evidence for my claim is twofold – first, my experience of listening to the exact same music on the same system This is subjective – you weren’t there and can’t evaluate my claim so any weight you give to what I saw is only what you choose to give me. I can handle that.

            Second, this questions of “what sounds better, CD or Vinyl” is not a settled issue. This fellow provides what appears to be a decent analysis: http://tinyurl.com/224y8j . His results are inconclusive but do lay out the areas where people seem to disagree – dynamic range, higher distortion. Note also that his measurements are done in the digital realm, so whatever conversion is happening to put all of the formats into the same program will leave the same artifact. Scouring around the internet for about 20 minutes, it appears that any test I was able to come up with didn’t get me where I think this needs to be measured (and what I heard in my own living room) – the exact same recording reproduced by the same mastering engineer using the same settings being played back on the same system. To turn this into a not-subjective analysis, the testing should then be an all analog test on the electrical signal being outputted by the respective players . Sounds like a real pain in the ass.

            Even in this instance, however, the medium is still at the mercy of the different pieces of equipment reproducing their information: the cartridge/tonearm system and preamp for the vinyl, the D/A converter and motor mechanism for the CD player. (Notice I did not talk about whether or not the cables used for these systems are carbon frozen, because I am not a tool).

            Points of all this are that it’s not settled, I can only claim to report what I heard, I haven’t found a convincing analysis (and certainly not a preponderance of convincing analysis) and the stuff you say about the limits of analog aren’t founded in my book.

            = Justin

    • Biff Tannen

      Vinyl absolutely sounds better. You are 100% wrong if you think otherwise….or tone deaf.

      • http://www.myspace.com/robbiedrechsel Robbie

        Based on what? And see my comments above on being tonedeaf. Digital music has far more dynamic range and headroom the vinyl ever will.

        If you like vinyl more than CD, that’s fine. But it’s not the gospel, and it’s not a fact.

        • http://www.myspace.com/robbiedrechsel Robbie

          Justin, for some reason there is no “reply” button below your link, so I’m posting it right below. Hope you find it. And I like to thank you for a well worded coherent post, that didn’t resort to calling me an absolute idiot.

          First link on goolgle on the high frequency issue: http://www.chicagomasteringservice.com/vinyl.html

          I’m including it because it also talks about the “loudness wars” for anybody lurking here that hasn’t heard about it.

          I totally agree with you that the debate isn’t settled. I’m just tired of the absolute that Vinyl is better in all cases, and that’s what so many are saying. And in a lot of cases, it’s all because of a couple egocentric audiophiles who have hundreds of thousands into their systems, and everyone else taking their word as gospel. The same audiophiles who have carbon frozen quantum cables made from unobtanium and sheathed in monkey hair. And then people listening to iPods with 128kbit tracks are telling me how much better vinyl is and how much digital sucks for quality, when their turntable is hooked up to their Home Theater in a box. Not kidding, this happens to me.

          In all actuality, I don’t think the debate is worth settling. Like I said above, they are both great. Some LP’s sound AMAZING, some CD’s sound AMAZING. And many LP’s sound like vomit, as do many CD’s. The problem is that most of the people focusing on the whole LP vs CD vs Portable debate are listening to the equipment, and not to the music in the first the place. That’s a side rant though.

          If you have decent equipment or have access to it, and are listening with an unbiased ear, then I’m totally willing to give your experience plenty of credit. What I find to hold even more weight is double blind testing, especially on unfamiliar pieces. But even on familiar pieces, a gentleman by the name of Mike Lavigne has failed those, on his own system. And it sound like you’ve got some experience recording, I’ll give you some points too. In a perfect world, yes, it shouldn’t matter how it was recorded, but you’d also understand that an analog studio from the seventies is going to do things quite differently than someone with a protools setup today.

          And nice hack about the audio cables. I made mine for about $50 bucks, and have had lots of people tell me how amazing they make my system sound and wonder where they can buy them. Most of the fifty bucks was for the tech-flex they went into!

  • cougar party

    I kind of like having Pat Robertson around. It seems like everytime I think that guy finally fucking died, he comes out of nowhere with some of the most amazingly awful, indecent, and just plain wacko comments. The Haiti thing might be his best one yet. My fucking jaw dropped when I saw the clip. Mainly because he’s actually serious.

    I don’t know why they keep letting that guy back on TV. It seems like if any other public figure said half the shit he did, that person would never work in entertainment, religious or otherwise, again

    • Biff Tannen

      they don’t really ‘let him on tv’…its all on his own network. I don’t think you are going to see him on network television saying these hilarious things any time soon

    • Justin Foley

      Remember who he blamed 9/11 on – homosexuals.

      I can actually agree with your point about having him around as a kook. But still.

      = Justin

      • cougar party

        Wow, that’s some great material. I wonder who writes this stuff for him.

  • Insomnivore

    In 50yrs time I’ll be able to beam a hologram of Salt ‘n’ Pepa performing Push It out of my eyes, use my ears as speakers and spread my ass if you need more bass.

    • Alex_P

      This will make sex pretty weird.

      • Alex_P

        Or awesome, depending on who your partner is.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jorge-R-Valverth/521246222 Jorge R. Valverth

    Hey I technically Guesse right!!! and I read no tweet about it!! Take another look to my post man!!

    • Justin Foley

      There is no visualization. The DVD is data only. I appreciate the effort, but you technically got it wrong.

      = Justin

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jorge-R-Valverth/521246222 Jorge R. Valverth

        But if the “winner” cheatted and Im the closest to the answer, shouldnt I be the Winner??

        • Justin Foley

          It wasn’t his fault that our label decided to broadcast the answer to all of Tweetdom. I’ll tell you what: you’ll be a new kind of winner. The kind who doesn’t get any prizes, but a winner still.

          = Justin

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jorge-R-Valverth/521246222 Jorge R. Valverth

            REALLY?!?!
            F U C K Y O U!!!

  • Facebook User

    I didnt even think of a Data DVD. I need to get a turntable though. I have some great vinyls that need justice

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Sterner/1335958279 Andrew Sterner

    Free download, and for albums I can find(and when I can afford them), Vinyl. Haven’t bought a CD in 7 years now. Last Vinyls I picked up were “Show No mercy” by slayer, and “Death Magnetic” by metallica. I know those are more or less mainstream, but I was at the mall and had some extra money floating in my pocket. I think I did pretty well considering the selection at FYE.

  • Dave

    For anything recorded in analog, the yes, vinyl absolutely sounds better. And it appears there are alot of thieves out there stealing music and telling themselves it’s okay. But then we knew that. In many ways, the internet has been the worst thing to happen to modern civilization.

  • WowWee!

    My favorite format is Live. (most of the time)

    • Anselmowitz

      Yeah this

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jake-Haras/1185944091 Jake Haras

    Does free download only refer to illegal download? LIke for example the new Gama Bomb album was released for free, does that count? Regardless the number of illegal downloaders needs to go down, I’m a cd buyer myself.

    • Alex_P

      Same. I buy unless a band puts it out for free, or it’s out of print, or I’ve made a conscious decision to not support the band. Almost always, I go physical.

  • canea

    If I don’t buy CDs what am I going to eBay when I’m broke (from buying CDs)?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mujtaba-Al-Obidy/718012896 Mujtaba Al-Obidy

    i am a metalhead ,, but i live in place where i cant support my fav. bands by anyway except FREE/ILLEGAL Download .. n then spread the word that it was an Awesome record , so those who can BUY things go and do ,,

    and i guess metal is an Underground scene ,, so the way it should be supported is by going GIGS,buyin MERCHS,,, more than buyin CDs ,, even though, if i am gonna have the opportunity to buy all my music coll. in a CD format i will do for sure .. [btw, i had more than 1000 album in my iPod/PC :D]

  • http://vague-news.blogspot.com Clarky Cat

    So when’s this EP gonna be released so we can get our grubby mits on it?

    • Justin Foley

      It’ll be out at the beginning of May.

      = Justin

  • gnarlk

    i love vinyl a fair amount as well, but my largest problem these days is that i have to pay insane prices for it. a recent example is the shrinebuilder ep, which is showing up for $27 in “punk friendly” stores in my place of dwelling. as much as i’d love to have a “great sounding” physical copy of it, i’d rather pay 1/3 the price on itunes. money trumps all i’m afraid…

    • Biff Tannen

      Vinyl shouldn’t cost that much. You got ripped off because you listen to shitty music and they knew they can gouge hipsters

  • TallNerdGuy

    The whole “which will be around 50 years from now” thing can be looked at more realistically, I think. Just like how vinyl records are still being put out today and how turntables are being sold, I believe that CDs could potentially have the same level of staying power. Years from now, when whatever non-CD format takes over, who is to say that CDs and CD players won’t have a similar cult following that vinyl does? A lot of people who grew up with vinyl records still use them to this day, and if I had to guess I would say that many who grew up with CDs will use them exclusively into the future, as well. Plus, its not like CDs would get their asses kicked by time, either…you could drop them from fairly high up or let them get buried under 50 lbs of junk but they’d still play. Some good points are made about vinyl in this article, but I think CDs aren’t getting enough credit (aside from their praise in the chart).

  • Adam

    I wish I had replied to the previous thread, just for the record, I still buy CDs, and even though they don’t cost a ton, I generally can’t afford to get them very often. I do download pretty much everything before I ever buy it, and usually if I don’t like something, I delete it.

    I have a pretty big list of albums I need to buy eventually when I can afford to, probably over $500 worth (assuming we’re talking an average of $12 per cd)

    I have never owned a record and I honestly don’t think I ever will. This is both due to space limitations as well as lack of a record player. I’m a child of the digital age and as such I’m used to CDs and MP3s. I’m quite happy with my iPod and having my entire music library in my pocket. Plus I love podcasts.

    I can hear the difference between 160kbps mp3s and anything lower quality, I can’t really hear the difference between 160 and 320. I find at that point, it really does come down to how well the music was recorded at studio level. Like at lower mp3 quality the cymbals/hi hats start to sound really swishy, lo-fi, which is only exacerbated when they were recorded poorly to begin with. I have started to become more conscious of this with my own recording, since I am not really able to test listen to my mixes on lots of different systems.

    I do own a few cassette tapes, but would never buy anything on cassette unless there was no other choice. I don’t even have a cassette player right now. CDs and MP3s are just the easiest way to go for being compact and portable, for me at least (living in a bachelor apartment).

  • Lybrium

    hahah, “true story…” wtf?!?!