THE AUSTERITY PROGRAM’S JUSTIN FOLEY WONDERS: IS IT OKAY TO LISTEN TO MUSIC MADE BY PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK ARE BAD FOLKS?

Monday, April 26th, 2010 at 4:45pm by

Ho ho ho, it must be Christmas time, because Santa Claus is back on the cover of major magazines. Or, at least, Varg Vikernes was giving me an asymmetrical leer from the cover of this month’s Decibel. I do not envy J Bennett’s charge of having to write that piece – I have met J a few times, he’s my kind of people, and writing this “guess who’s outta jail” bit is a landmine. Still, I was disappointed that he spent more time reporting what was happening in some messageboards than tackling the most compelling question about Burzum and the music community: is it okay to listen to music made by people who you think are bad folks?

Let me say that this goes well beyond Burzum or my like/dislike for VV and his music. I’ve got a number of records made by people who say things I don’t like or do things I don’t like. And I get the sense that a bunch of people in strong, self-identified communities (straight edge, fundamentalist Christian, anarchist, Juggalo, some self-hating mix of all four, etc.) are often uncomfortable with copping to liking music that’s not a part of that shared ethos. So think for a moment beyond the guy peering at you from the top of your mail pile/stuff-I-stole-from-Borders-this-month pile and consider how we separate the artist from the art from the message.

It’s a thorny question. On one hand: if it’s music that you really enjoy, why deny yourself that experience? On the other: why would you want to support someone who inspires ambivalence or even revulsion? I’ve been going back and forth over this in my mind since reading through that article and I think I’ve come to something like a conclusion.

Most clearly, I think people should buy whatever music they can afford that they are curious about. It’s nuts to think or expect that the listener should be fully aware of the intent of something even before they get a chance to listen to it.

But, even further, I think people are perfectly justified in buying something that deals in subjects that are sick, wrong or immoral. In my band I sing a bunch about people dying, doing things that they know are wrong, or treating people in ways that they shouldn’t. Someone might object to that as my saying I’m advocating what I’m singing about and I would rightfully call their criticism infantile. Singers, musicians, artists should absolutely deal with the subject matter that compels them without the expectation that they must only present their own values. And the listener shouldn’t be expected to wade through figuring out if the guy really means it.

But, even further further, I think people are perfectly justified in buying something that they know they find immoral. I’ll be honest – unlike many folk who talk about the importance of values, I actually take values very seriously. I truly believe that the most important thing that what I (or anyone else) do in life is whether or not I live according to my clearly held beliefs. And that may relate to the one thing I love most about music: not whether or not it meets an ethical standard – it’s one of the few places in life where that’s not important. The most valuable musical moments for me, as a listener, have taken me to a place outside of moral judgment – jarred from reality in hearing a part of a song for the first time, pounding the roof of my car as I’m driving and screaming along, overwhelmed at a show by a overwhelming force that changes my sense time and space. And so it’s not a moral consideration to listen to music made by someone who is truly evil to see where it takes me as a listener.

Last, you’ll notice that I said ‘buying something’. It is a weak-ass argument to suggest that the content of music makes it more or less okay to share. The decibel article notes that the head of Earache provided a download link to the new Burzum record, something he does not do for the records on Earache. This may seem outrageous, but it’s not so outrageous that others probably don’t do the same kind of thing: “I’ll happily torrent the RaHoWa CD I got because fuck those guys, but I would never do that for Fugazi.” I say – be consistent, regardless of how much you may like or respect the people behind the thing you’re listening to. (If you read that as a judgment on file sharing, it wasn’t. Read it again. If you still think that’s what I said then I didn’t explain myself well.)

I guess this has its limits, though. Buying music made by people that you really think are evil means appreciating the music they make in an honest way. Seeing them live? Sure, probably. Buying a t-shirt? Well, you gotta draw the line somewhere and that’s about where I would start. It’s one thing to listen to the music for what it is. But you’re moving to the point of advocacy when you’re spending your money or broadcasting what they’re about beyond just that.

And as with all hypothetical moral arguments it’s best to keep some perspective on this. I was in La Guardia Airport the other day with a delayed flight. This guy pulled up to the urinal next to me with a Graveland hoodie, an R Kelly armband, a tattoo across the back of his neck that said “Jerry Lee Lewis” and he was humming a fucking Billy Joel song. I was disgusted as this human billboard of depravity but I just had to know: “where you going?”

“Are you kidding me?” he said. “Thousands of people have lost all hope in an earthquake. I’ve finally saved up enough money for a one way ticket to Port Au Prince where I’m going to help rebuild schools. Good thing I’ve got the new Burzum record to keep me company.”

Germs be damned, I happily reached over and gave him a handshake. “You’re my hero.”

Next week: More Taco Riff Stuff.

-JF

Justin Foley plays guitar and sings for the Austerity Program.  Their record Backsliders and Apostates Will Burn is out 5/4/10.  Visit them online at www.austerityprogram.com.  All messages about urban bike riding, vegetarian BBQ and monetary policy will be answered first.

  • lybrium

    Awesome article Justin, I really enjoy reading your contributions here.

  • Meathead

    There’s a lot of evil motherfuckers in government that get my money whether I support them or not. When it comes to entertainment, if Varg made good music I’d still listen to it. But then again… I could just be a bad person.

  • kmfcm

    What did Billy Joel do, again?
    I completely don’t remember.

    I once saw a down ass brotha in a Burzum shirt. I wish I would’ve had the chance to talk to him.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bobby-Nall/1537330640 Bobby Nall

    The content of the music itself doesn’t necessarily justify torrenting an album (wholly different question), but a desire to control who your money goes to does. I think the problem is that the money you spend, even to just buy the record, is funding the person you know you dislike. Even if the music itself is fully removed from the actions/intentions/message of the artist, the money you spend still benefits the enemy, so to speak. I don’t morally agree with the lyrics to “Puss”, but I’ve bought 3 copies of Liar over the years. Likewise, if I for some reason liked Burzum, I’d happily grab a torrent somewhere and lose no sleep.

    I always err on the side of paying for music, but if I know for sure that the creator is racist, rapist, murderer, etc., I’ll not be giving them my money.

    Ultimately, this isn’t a question of “is it okay to like music made by someone you dislike” (it is); the question is “is it okay to refrain from paying money to someone you hate for something they made?” And in my personal moral judgment, yes, it’s okay. Fuck those guys.

    Granted, all of us do this, wittingly or unwittingly, every day when we buy items from dictatorial countries, morally reprehensible corporations,

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bobby-Nall/1537330640 Bobby Nall

      Ignore my half-baked sentence there at the end…

    • chris

      Do you do this in every aspect of your life; only buy pot from a respectable dealer? Only eat vegan b/c the butchering of animals is wrong? Just wondering. If you’re going to use that philosophy when buying music, you should do the same with the rest of your life. Just saying.

      I personally don’t give a rat’s ass what you do.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bobby-Nall/1537330640 Bobby Nall

        That’s what I was beginning to get at with the last half-sentence. Basically, no, I don’t always do this – I am imperfect, and probably don’t do adequate research on whom my money is ultimately going to, BUT when I *do* know that it’s going somewhere I don’t like, then I avoid spending my money that way.

        • boobies

          Maybe he doesn’t believe that the butchering of animals is wrong, but he does believe that Nazism is wrong. We all have our lines that we must draw ourselves…

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-44499-San-Antonio-Heavy-Metal-Examiner San Antonio Heavy Metal Examiner

    I was actually considering writing an article for the Examiner about the same subject, but you nailed it a lot better than I could have, many kudos to you, good sir.
    Overall, I’d say that there are a lot of bands I dig with musicians in them that are widely regarded as pretty horrible people. Dissection, Emperor, Incantation if Craig Pillard is really a Nazi, etc., but I usually say that as long as the music is good and they aren’t blatant about it in the lyrics, I’ll listen to it. I mean, even Wagner (Richard, not Antichrist) was an anti-Semite, but it’d be tough to find a soul who doesn’t appreciate “Ride of the Valkyries”. I draw the line (as I’m sure most metalheads do) with NSBM bands, though, because they’re so explicit about it, and that’s not something I’m cool with. Plus, I don’t think there are too many people who want to own an album with a bunch of swastikas on it regardless of how good the music is.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Matt-Dasher/30826541 Matt Dasher

      Yeas, Craig is a Neo-Nazi. http://www.reavermagazine.com/achint.html

    • http://www.omimetal.wordpress.com The Greys

      Good point, SAHME. You’re right about the difference being whether the artist is explicit in his agenda: I’m sure I own many albums by artists that are sexist or homophobic or have political philosophies that are different than my own … but since their music doesn’t address those issues, it doesn’t affect my listening experience.

      But, as you say, I could never listen to NSBM because of the overt message. But if the art doesn’t reflect the biases or prejudices of the artist, I can just appreciate the art and ignore the opinion of the artist.

      • boobies

        A lot of those NSBM bands are so blatant about it, and it is such a huge part of their message, that the music seems to just come secondary. Which would probably explain why I don’t listen to many (any?). The music sucks (not that I have made any grand attempt to listen and evaluate every NSBM band there is out there, so feel free to point me to a musically good one).

  • Rob

    a lot of words without really saying anything important…..good job.

    • SonOF

      Wow, I found the dick in the room. Go write something better, clown.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kasper-Maigaard/1027001938 Kasper Maigaard

    I really do like Burzum, and while what Varg thinks of modern civilisation, black people, religion, and racial hygiene is awful, it does make him and his music that more interesting.
    I’m no Nazi or church arsonist but I still like Burzum.

  • Genial Gentile

    Thought provoking as always, Justin.
    Interesting that you mentioned RaHoWa…their vocalist has disowned his past involvement with the white power movement and chalked a lot of it up to youthful indiscretion. And to be honest, it seems pretty sincere. I’ve recently wondered if VV’s comments about charity towards Haiti show a similar softening of ideals and convictions of ones youth.

    • Genial Gentile

      *maybe convictions wasn’t the right word to use there :/

  • Nick

    I completely agree about stealing their music because you think they are a bad person is stupid. If your complaint is that Varg is a racist, murdering scumbag, then you are supporting racist murdering scumbags just by listening to the music, even if you aren’t supporting him fiscally. He’s not making black metal for the money, he’s making it as an expression of himself, so his goals are fulfilled when you listen to it, not when you pay for it. Of course, if you don’t mind your money going to scumbags (and this isn’t meant to condemn people who are ok with that) by all means, go ahead. This is just meant to say that stealing from someone who you think is a scumbag is not taking the moral high ground. It’s just trying to skirt around the issue.

    If “bad people” bother you, don’t listen to them. If they don’t, then treat them the same as everyone else.

    • Alex_P

      At the same time, I do believe in separating art from artist.Thus, I will torrent Metallica records, but buy records by the Ocean. In that particular case, it’s more about not wanting to support major labels and selling out.

      Of course, I occasionally torrent for lack of money. I don’t have anything against any member of In the Woods… or Suffocation, but I felt I needed to experience their music. Thus, I torrented it with the intention of buying later.

      • Alex_P

        Just to clarify, I don’t think Vikernes’s actions are comparable to Metallica’s. Selling out is a slight ethical dilemma with no real moral importance. Killing someone in cold blood and committing arson actually makes you evil.

      • chris

        I get music for free b/c I can. If I could get groceries for free I would do that too!. If I like an artist’s music I’ll go to a show, but it has nothing to do with supporting them, but with me wanting to enjoy their music. Torrenting music is illegal no matter if the dude in a band is a scumbag or not. Everyone has an excuse for everything. I do it b/c I choose to.

        • Alex_P

          I feel that too. I often get albums for free as downloads, but yeah.

          That being said, I sometimes really appreciate having a physical product. For bands like Radiohead, for example, the album art is a part of what they’re trying to convey. And listening to In Rainbows on vinyl is always more pleasant than going by iPod.

        • Nick

          I’m just saying, don’t download it because you think you are taking some moral high ground. Downloading is stealing. If you are ok with that, go ahead.

          This wasn’t a statement about illegal downloading, it was just aimed at people who use downloading as some sort of justification. If you think he is a terrible person, and that that immorality spills over into his music, then don’t listen to it. Stealing it won’t change anything. Otherwise, do what you please.

          • vag

            What if I think he is a terrible person, but I enjoy his music? I am a pretty selfish person when it comes to that… I don’t care what people think of the music I lsiten to, if I like it, then that’s that. If people really want to think that I am condone Burzum’s music just by listening to it, then that’s their loss.

            Ya know, cause I am awesome…

  • Insomnivore

    I agree, more or less. If you broadened this non-buying ethos out to include regular assholes as well as sociopaths you’d have nothing in your collections except Iron Maiden, I can think of very few great artists/bands who aren’t, in some way or another, complete cunts. Genius seems to quite regularly come with a side order of douchebag. It’s just personal choise at which level of cuntdom you draw the line and keep your wallet in your pocket, I think for instance that if Varg championed child abuse instead of racialism and poorly researched (and mythical) history then he wouldn’t sell a single unit but racist views still have a market and murder IS pretty metal at the end of the day. Fuck him though, the funtioning schizo mess that he is.

  • Isaac

    Whoever doesn’t already share your thoughts is stupid.
    Except for the t-shirt thing. I hate Varg as a person yet I still have a Hvis Lyset Tar Oss shirt.

    • Justin Foley

      It’s nice that you agree with me, but the ambiguity – points where reasonable, smart people can honestly disagree – is what makes it an interesting topic of discussion. If I was arguing for the existence of gravity, it wouldn’t make much of a read. The fact that others express some different points of view in the comments here is a good thing.

      = Justin

  • cougar party

    It probably depends on how serious you take some of this stuff. Honestly, this debate is a bit silly. Anyone who listens to Cannibal Corpse’s “Entrails Ripped from a Virgin’s Cunt” and then sits around debating whether they can listen to something they don’t agree with ideologically doesn’t make much sense to me.

    Secondly, let’s be honest with ourselves. Most metal songs you pretty much have to look up the lyrics to understand the vocals. So let’s say you listen to an album all your life, you love it, then one day your read the lyrics and find out they offend you in some way. Does that mean the song is now somehow not good? No, it’s just means you probably won’t be getting the VIP pass to meet them backstage at the next show.

    The “message” is just part of the package. It’s not necessarily the most important part. For example, one might eat at McDonald’s knowing it’s low quality and unhealthy, but they really fucking love Big Macs. Just like you may listen to a bad with fucked up beliefs, but you really dig their sound.

    • Anon

      “Anyone who listens to Cannibal Corpse’s “Entrails Ripped from a Virgin’s Cunt” and then sits around debating whether they can listen to something they don’t agree with ideologically doesn’t make much sense to me.”

      Now hold on. CC is like the musical equivalent of gore/exploitation flicks. If anything, the lyrics are humorous, which I believe is intentional on the band’s part.

      Burzum, on the other hand. Varg takes his music pretty damn seriously.

      • Alex_P

        This.

        When intent is known, that changes everything. There’s a level on which I do “agree” with Cannibal Corpse: I find the over-the-top nature of the lyrics (Fucking her harder… harder!) funny, and am amused when people get offended by them.

        • Justin Foley

          I think intent is pretty moot. It’s impossible to guage clearly and it’s even problematic to say that you can distill intent away from the music. Maybe some band that says “BY CREATING THIS SONG WE CLEARLY ONLY WANT EVERYONE IN DELAWARE TO DIE”, maybe something that problematic and unambiguous means intent could mean something. Better advice to just say “don’t feel like you have to figure out what the guy really means, just listen to the music for what it is”. Seems more reasonable.

          I don’t think I just made much sense right there.

          = Justin

      • vag

        “Now hold on. CC is like the musical equivalent of gore/exploitation flicks. If anything, the lyrics are humorous, which I believe is intentional on the band’s part.”

        I think that’s his point. There is no sense getting into some ideological debate over CC’s music because… well it’s silly, and most people probably interpret it as silly and over-the-top and transgressive and whatnot. But “ideologically wrong”? Maybe for the PMRC or whatever the contemporary equivalent is, but not for most listeners.

      • cougar party

        I actually don’t listen to Burzum so I don’t know if his views on race are directly addressed in the music, but if not, I’m not sure how much that would have to do with the enjoyment of the product.

        For example, if Bruce Dickinson came out and said he has an unabashed hatred for all people of non-european descent i would lose a lot of respect for the guy, but it wouldn’t make me suddenly not like Number of the Beast.

  • Kuranes

    Axl Rose got flak years ago for covering a Charles Manson song. I suppose that falls under the rebroadcasting category, but I still think that was okay. Singing a Charles Manson song is less douchey than wearing a Charles Manson t-shirt, in my opinion. I don’t think Manson ever got that far into merchandising though.

    • Alex_P

      I’ve seen some.

      • Justin Foley

        It’s pretty safe to say that Charles Manson is not getting a cut of those shirt sales.

        = Justin

  • Oden

    Damn fine article. I’ve often asked myself this very same question and thankfully came to the same conclusion you have submitted here. Case and point: I consider myself having christian-like values but I by no means go around thumping the bible and judging people. I do sometimes feel uncomfortable with Deicide lyrics but the music is so fuckin good! I can’t help but listen and even “sing” along sometimes.

  • Seb

    I won’t buy anything from a band or artist openly promoting [real] hate in their music or have their members openly participating in racist movements. I would never buy a Skrewdriver record, or anything related to the white power movement.

    If the music is good, but the drummer happens to be prejudiced against Mexicans in his personal life, I don’t care. As long as that message of hate doesn’t come across in their music, people can believe whatever they want to.

    I think this is different than Slayer writing “Angel of Death.” Yes, the song is about megacunt Josef Mengele and the horrifying things he did, but they don’t say the things he was doing were right or “cool” in any way. It’s like a documentary set to thrash metal.

  • http://shakethatbear.com Mikhail

    Great article. I just started to listening to your bands music the other day and I’m really enjoying it. Keep up the great work.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Duna-Salous/527287686 Duna Salous

    Well, the reason why I don’t listen to Burzum is because . . in MY honest-to-fuck opinion . . I think Varg’s music sucks. I am not even going to count the two albums he wrote in jail because I don;t believe they serve as proper gratification to Burzum’s music as a whole. I think it is important to be open-minded and just keep an agreeable ear to all the different kinds of music you like. Yeah, sure . . I think Richey Edwards from Manic Street Preachers was a douche bag, but I love the album The Holy Bible. It’s as far as you go when supporting these artists, but at the same time it’s absorbing the music itself and reminding yourself that it is that person’s right to express how they fee.l even if you disagree. Music shouldn’t divide the masses, the melody should bring ‘em together.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Duna-Salous/527287686 Duna Salous

    . . and, excuse my typos. I am not good when it comes to typing on a laptop.

  • SonOF

    Well-written articles presenting thoughtful arguments created by folks who also make interesting music? I want more of this…

    I have also thought about this issue quite a bit. Typically I do not go out of my way to “support” artists who act or speak in direct opposition to my most core moral values, but I will never complete deprive myself of ANY music, art, etc. COMPLETELY, regardless of who creates it. I think if you completely boycott a particular artist – regardless of the reason – you may be missing out on something that could change your life.

    I

  • Jacob

    The difference of course, to me, is context: to all the people who are saying stuff about death metal bands’ lyrical content, grow up. They’re obviously not endorsing ‘Meat Hook Sodomy,’ raping with knives, etc, etc. But with guys like Varg, I refuse to listen to them. And yes, I do listen to bands with views different from mine (secular Jew atheist), I enjoy some August Burns Red and As I Lay Dying, and other stuff that is theistic. I don’t care because the main message that I assume they take from it is the positives; yes, the bullshit spread from their holy texts pisses me off and is counter to my beliefs (#1 being marry whoever the fuck you want), but until I hear that they really only care about those beliefs, not the positive ones, I won’t care. Vikernes, though, is a racist, anti-Semitic, dumb ass piece of shit, and because of his beliefs I will not listen to his music. And while I understand other people have different standards for this, I still automatically dislike (guilty until proven innocent) someone I see browsing the metal CD section wearing a Burzum shirt.

    • Jacob

      Oh, and yeah, I won’t even download (knowingly) something from scumbags, let alone pay for it.

    • ian

      Well firstly, Burzum is not anti-semetic. Burzum is entirely about norse mythology and Lord Of The Rings and that type of thing. Varg wants you to drift off into some fantasy adventure when you listen to Burzum, not fuel you with politics. Take that for whatever you want to take it as, but it’s the truth. Varg *may* be anti-semetic, and nobody truly will ever know because he’s constantly contradicting himself, but not Burzum. That’s the point being made in this article.

      Secondly, you do see the hypocrisy in being, an “ethnic” Jew, casting judgment on someone based on their appearance, don’t you?

      • Justin Foley

        Where’s the hypocrisy? Having physical appearance that bears resemblance to some stereotype isn’t your fault. But no one was born wearing a Burzum hoodie.

        I think I’m missing your point.

        = Justin

  • http://leroydragon.wordpress.com leroydragon

    awesome, thought provoking, top shit justin

  • http://www.last.fm/user/Richaod/ Richaod

    Great piece – but I’d love to hear more thoughts on how an artist’s views/acts affect the listener’s perception of the music. Not THAT many metalheads seem to boycott Burzum because of Varg, but on a broader scale, what about Charles Manson, Phil Spector?… Hell, even Michael Jackson, whose music I love… I wonder how critical evaluations of his work after his death would’ve looked if those allegations were ever proven.

    As much as I’d like to say the artist’s misdemeanours don’t affect their art, especially if unrelated, I really don’t know…

  • Fufkin

    Very interesting issue and well approached here I thought. I think the Burzum review threw up some interesting responses here too.

  • B-dizzle

    Richard Wagner was a shitty dude.

    Wrote some of the best music, ever.

    The answer is yes, it’s okay

  • fester

    Steve Albini already wrote this article about Bad Brains. Like 25 years ago.

    • Justin Foley

      I haven’t read that. If you’ve got a link to it, please provide. He’s a smart guy and I’d be interested on his take on it.

      = Justin

  • Justin Foley

    I appreciate the time people have taken to comment, whether they liked the article or not.
    Not to much more to say about it other than thank. So … thanks.

    = Justin

  • DidgeryDo

    Justin I think it goes without saying that people will send money towards media with objectionable content. Everyone has their limits. Personally after hearing things Varg has to say I have no desire to support anything he does. Period.

  • Shinaain

    In brief: If I didn’t listen to music because I suspected this artist or that artist might be morally reprehensible or a just a garden-variety cretin, I wouldn’t have any music to listen to. With few exceptions, I do the best I can to avoid finding out anything about artists as people. For instance, Tool is one of my favorite acts ever and their music means a lot to me; all the same, I love it that those dudes could pass me on the street and I would have no idea. Another example, from the opposite end of the spectrum: Knowing something of the allegations of Al Green’s treatment of his family has ruined my enjoyment of his musical legacy.

    On a social level, I normally subscribe to the school of thought that you should vote with you money. That being said, the music is (usually) enough. And I had much the same mixed response to the media coverage of Varg’s release from prison and subsequent creative output as you.

  • Dubs

    I’m pretty sure every famous reggae artist is an extreme homophobe.